Hello, what I'm about to do could possibly defy "low carb logic" and probably result in angry posts, but I'd like you to approach this with an open mind and an honest assessment. Here goes nothing.

Do you truly believe ketosis is the driving force behind your success? If so then please allow me to argue. When I first started low carb eating it was hard as heck. Downright tiring. So I dropped it. But always resumed it in the following two or three months. What I noticed was after coming off low carb, each time and stuffing myself with junk food due to carb withdrawal, I actually looked better and I did gain weight most of it water, but muscle was really easy to add on and hardly any of the weight was fat. I think I gained around ten pounds in those two months of crappy eating with mostly muscle even though I didn’t do a lot of exercising. My point is low carb eating just like low fat, or low calorie is more of a stimulus that yields great results short term, but begins to lag if you stay on too long.

So, the very notion of ketosis as the mechanism of increased fat loss is questionable. Rather consider the thyroid as the driving force behind every diet. Each diet works by lowering calories. Initially the T3 is still high from before you started the diet. Couple lower calories with a thyroid accustomed to higher calories and you get a synergistic effect. As time increases, your body recognizes this and down regulates the thyroid and there’s less T3 running around. Thus fewer calories are burned and reserved in case of a famine. This forces you to rely more on fat burners.

Now if ketosis is the be all, do all that everyone harps about, then you should never run into a rut. Let me ask you this. Have you stalled? Well I read about people on this forum who get rid of every single carb containing food or fret about a supplement they may take three times a day, tops because it contains one gram of dextrose or lactose, and if they take it they’re out of ketosis. Are you willing to negate the benefits of taking fiber or a mineral supplement because of one gram of sugar?

Ketosis works by breaking down fats and using ketones as fuel. Also a high concentration is another criteria for ketosis. You can achieve this, sure, but it’s really hard because the body would prefer carbohydrates or protein (four calories are easier to break down instead of nine calories) to fat. So it begins breaking down protein and fat. Instead of ketosis we’ve entered gluconeogenesis. Fat is still being used, but protein is being broken down and used as fuel at a faster rate. Then you would think adding lots of oil to your whey shake would slow gluconeogenesis, but it’s pretty hard to fight all those years of evolution. If you ate little protein and increased the fat, more muscle would be used instead since the delivery of protein to the liver becomes slower.

Most of you would argue that ketosis is working. The magic keto sticks says so. Well like I said ketones and glucose are being used for fuel. You can bet some ketones will be found in urine since they are by products of fat metabolism.

What I’m trying to justify by writing this (if you don’t know by now), ketosis is over-rated. Calorie reduction, the thyroid, catabolic forces are what make diets effective in the short run.

What I would advocate is cycling diets (not CKD because it’s hard psychologically and you can’t work out as well due to carbohydrate shortage) and doing something quite radical, try going straight into a high carbohydrate, low fat diet and vice versa. In fact give yourself a “free week” consisting of cheat meals anytime you want for the first week along with your high carbohydrate, low fat diet, but the more you eat the more you focus on the weight room. As for cardio, find something you like doing and do it. Be it tennis or aerobics, but do it for no more than two days out of this week. Now after this “induction” phase start going back to eating less calories, use fat burners, and up cardio to four days max, but remember we’re doing high carb low fat this time.

Theoretically weight should be coming off fairly easily and you’ll look better in the mirror. Also with that induction phase you’ve given your muscles a chance to recover and promote anabolism, your thyroid to upregulate, and you’ll have renewed focus. Once it looks like you’re stalling again, time to take another “free” week off, then switch to low carb, use fat burners, and up the cardio again.


PS:

· I’m sure most of you will probably disagree and cite reasons why. I’m glad. This is just my opinion and it’s just a little experiment you can attempt. After all, if you’re not getting anywhere how much can it possibly hurt?

· I know there are mostly women in this forum and most shy from the weight room, but nothing makes fat loss easier than more muscle. If you’re worried about bulkiness, don’t because most men have a hard time getting big and they produce much more testosterone. If you worry about safety find a partner or trainer to help stabilize weight and keep an eye on you.

· That’s it hope it helps. Believe me I wouldn’t spend a good couple of hours writing this just to screw people. I could do worse things.

bobbarabbi...

What you're suggesting may work for you and possibly for others (one diet does not fit all), but would be a blood sugar disaster for me. You're completely missing, or at least not addressing, the hyperinsulinemia and insulin resistance portion of all of this that many people following a low carb plan are prone to including myself.
As a diabetic, your "free week" of high carb, low fat is precisely the type of diet that got my blood sugars out of control in the first place and I would be spending the next couple of weeks afterwards trying to get my blood sugars back into the normal range again.
Ketosis is simply the byproduct of lipolysis, or fat burning, and anyone on a fat reducing diet that is burning fat will be in some level of ketosis. Also, ketosis is not the main focus of many low carb plans (you only address Atkins), including mine and not everyone uses the test strips and drives themselves crazy over a few grams of sugar.
Your body will only break down its own muscle tissue in the absence of adequate dietary protein. As a person loses weight, it's perfectly normal to lose some muscle mass as you are not having to carry around all that extra weight 24/7, but loss of lean body mass has been shown to be less on a low carb, adequate protein diet than on any other. After nearly 2 years on low carb, I have maintained my lean body mass while losing 75 lbs. Of course, I also work with weights now but didn't for the first year.
Keep in mind that weight loss isn't the only goal of many low carbers. Better overall health matters too. All of my blood tests, which is ultimately how most health care professionals gauge your level of health, look better on low carb than they ever did on a low fat, high carb diet and I've done both. I feel better than I have in decades and I also no longer need medications to control my blood sugars and blood pressure so I'd say that this is definitely a better choice for me. If I should hit a stall..no biggie. With my health being so much improved, I can afford to take my time getting the weight off. After all, this isn't a race and I don't have to compare my weight loss with anyone else's.
Is low carb worth it for me? Absolutely.

I was going to make the same point as Lisa. It's the stable blood sugar that's going to keep me doing locarb. I do agree with you though that for some people, shaking up things once and awhile probably gets things going again. For me personally, I'm just eating the plan right now, and staying very comfortably at 142. I think I'll have to rock the boat to get it moving again, which I will when I'm ready. The advantage to ketosis, for me, is the stable appetite, but I think/know I lose when I drop my cals.

To each his own. Personally I think your observations are quite good ones, for the person who doesn't have a major problem with carbs that is.

Good luck on your losses.

Ditto what Lisa said on the issue of hyperinsulimia and diabetes. I came to LC suffering from reactive hypoglyceamia and severe insulin resistance. LCing fixed that and allowed my metabolism to function properly again. Ketosis wasn't the saviour, IMHO, cutting the carbs was.

Increased activity of the right kind (weight lifting) and an increase of 'good' slow burning, complex carbohydrates has allowed me to keep everything in check and continue losing the fat. I am no longer in ketosis - haven't been for over 6 months. IMHO, whats working for me right now is a caloric deficit, a greatly improved metabolism and wise food choices. But it all started with <30g of carbs a day, and the byproduct of lypolysis.

My 3 cents
Nat

What I noticed was after coming off low carb, each time and stuffing myself with junk food due to carb withdrawal, I actually looked better and I did gain weight most of it water, but muscle was really easy to add on and hardly any of the weight was fat

Really?? Wow - good for you! Every time I've stuffed myself with junk food (before and after low-carb), I've felt absolutely terrible. I get the immediate sugar buzz (which I channel into eating more junk food), then within an hour am laying on the couch for the rest of the day with what feels like a lump of lead in my stomach, wondering what I can munch on. I don't gain muscle because I don't have any energy to go do anything. I gain chub.

You have a metabolism I most definitely envy!!

Perhaps you're one of the people that the "Carbohydrate Addicts diet" - the kind where you have one full-carb meal/day would work for!

Well as a theorist, who likes to well... theorize, lol I'm always finding ways to "cheat" the system. The main point I want to make is too many people worry about ketosis, when it seems more impossible than achieving... well nirvana, lol. As for hyperinsulin problems they're less of a concern if you eat clean, lift, do some cardio and make omega 3's a good 20-30% of your daily caloric intake (also I like adding in such blood glucose controlling herbs like fenugreek or bitter melon). As for cheat week, it isn't necessarily sitting down and pigging out all day. Eating clean and throwing in one cheat meal per day or every other day (preferably after lifting or before) should get things going again. As for fat burners... use initially when your thyroid has been upregulated, once the effects seem to taper save them for later.

Essentially variety is the spice of life.

Gosh, I'm glad the pros got here before me...because my two cents is real simple:

I don't even worry or wonder whether I'm in ketosis or not. Never use the strips, don't care. Like Nat says, it's the cutting of the carbs that did it for me because I too was insulin resistant and hypoglycemic...just getting the carbs under control allowed my body to start functioning properly, and that was the key.

It's all about finding the right combination for your particular locker, eh?

Whatever works best. If low carb continues to give you results then that's good. If you're in a rut, giving yourself a short break or changing things for a while helps.

I think you have been eating to many carbs and are not thinking clearly...........

I started Atkins not for hypoglycemia or diabetes, but because I was experiencing some symptoms such as memory loss, reoccurring infections, constapation, etc.. I went to the doctor and every test came back as negative, and oh by the way, buy some metamucil... I lost 36 lbs doing my 'own' thing and exercising intensely for up to 6 days a week. I eventually reached a plateau, but losing the weight didn't make any of my symptoms go away.. until I started Atkins.

After 1 week my memory became clearer. It didn't take me 1 hour to write a one paragraph email. After two weeks, my infection cleared up and I had less gas and bloating. Weight started out as being the second thing on my mind. As I started to drop, my weight and what I was eating came into the forefront. I ran out like many others and purhcased the infamous ketosis strips and checked them regularly. I got mad at myself when I knocked myself out of ketosis by eating Boston Market's ham, with creamed spinach (23 carbs in one serving). I ran to the scale every morning and panicked for 5 mins when I didn't lose one pound. Is it the Splenda, or maybe the nuts, didn't try the Aktins bars, because the board suggested it may make you stall? After a week of this, I decided that it was crazy. You're right in a sense that most people (who come here specifically for weight loss and the health benefits just happen to be an aftereffect) do get hung up on being in ketosis and drive themselves nuts with looking at nutritional labels, signing up with these health/fitness websites, etc. I think that this an initial phase. You get so excited about the the Dr.'s promises, and you want to make sure that you're following the plan correctly, but eventually as you continue this low carb lifestyle, you grow out of the ketosis infatuation.

I ran out of Ketostix last week and haven't brought a new bottle, my scale is now under the sink of my downstairs bathroom, I happen to like Atkins carmel Endulge bars, and cheese cake cupcakes made with Splenda taste darnright good. But the best part is that I feel healthy, damn right sexy, and I'm not tired.

My point, (finally right!!) is to each his own. I'm not sure what you specifically mean by taking fat burners. I am hoping it's not leaning towards Xendrine or Hydroxycut, which long-term usage could have negative effects on certain individuals. I believe that LCL promotes a healthy lifestyle and aids in the prevention of may sugar-related diseases. I personally don't want to worry about popping fat-burners, remembering to take herbs, and varying my sugar intake, which I agree with Lisa and others ultimately isn't healthy for you.

I will give you brownie points though for the lifting. I'm in total agreement that muscle builing exercises promotes a better metabolism and a more appealing bodily image.

Just my whole dollar worth Sorry so long.

-Ebbie