It's great that following this "guideline" works for some folks but it is not one of the principles of the Atkins plan.

Let's be clear about that.

I don't think anyone here ever said that the 10-12x your body weight in calories guideline was Atkins (Atkins actually doesn't restrict calories at all). It's a guideline (not a LAW)...a place for most people to start, especially for new people who have had low calorie/low fat drilled into them for a long time, and it's based on the experiences of hundreds of people who have passed this way as well as that of the mentors, moderators and admins. Many people do quite well following that guideline (like myself, for instance). Others find that they need to go higher (believe it or not) or lower than that to lose weight sucessfully. Eventually, we all need to find the right carb and calorie levels that work for us because we are all unique and we all lose at different rates and at different carb and calories levels, but we all have to start somewhere. I want to make it clear that there is no one formula that will work for everyone 100% of the time! That may be why there are many low carb plans that all have different levels of carb restriction. Starting too low (calories and/or carbs) is a recipe for frustration and quickly dropping this WOE. Better to start too high and not shut down your metabolism and work downward from there until you find the correct level for YOU than to start too low and quickly give up because you are hungry and frustrated. Don't be too quick to dismiss the voice of experience just because what they tell you isn't printed in some book. Often experience is far more valuable.

I personally am not convinced about the 10x-12x rule, but I know that Atkins is not a low-calorie diet!

If you follow Atkins as a low-calorie diet, you will get low-calorie results, short-term loss, and damaged metabolism.

Wa'il

I base my caloric intake on what I think my metabolism is. 18x for fast, 17x for regular, and 16 times for slow. Reduce by 500 calories in order to lose a pound or two a week. Seems to be working for me.
Peace,
Brenda

Whatever works for you people is what you should stick with.

I eat 28-3000 + calories every day and thats more than 12x my wt and I consistantly lose.

Everybody's different though


Jeff

Isabel,

I am really unsure of what has gone wrong here but I don't recall anyone stating the 10x-12x guideline had anything to do with the Atkin's diet.

I believe the reason so many of us quote that guideline stems from so many new people coming on to the forums from low fat-low calorie diets and then switching to a low carb plan. So many have been brainwashed that low fat/low calorie is the way to go, so in order for us to get the new people over this problem is to quote the 10-12x body weight guideline in order to let new people know it is okay to eat.

I personally have seen people eating 800 calories a day having a tremendious problem of upping their calorie intake.

I am really sorry you have taken such an offense at this, and I really don't know what else to say about it. If it doesn't work for you by all means don't follow it. For the majority it works just fine.

Every moderator, and mentor on this forum volunteers their time and experience to help others move forward in their weight loss.

Again I am really sorry this whole subject has you upset, it was never my intention to do so, I was merely answering someone else's inquiry.

Best regards
Janet

It has been brought to my attention that I have caused some uneven reactions with my words. I am sorry to anyone I upset. I realize I have not quite articulated my resentment of the 10x guideline.

I am on the Atkins diet. I was on it and losing steadily for two weeks. Then I joined this forum and read about the 10X and upped my calories and I have been stalled since. Folks posted in my journal: you need to eat more. I gave other people my power and followed their advice.

I have seen countless posts telling others that they need to up their calories to 10X but I have never seen such a post -- to an individual, not a thread -- that qualified the 10X rule with ideas about how each person's metabolism is different.

I have 'felt' like acceptance on this forum requires one to be politically correct and adopt the 10X guideline.

I am following Atkins. Atkins does not recommend that a person eat 10X their weight. As noted elsewhere in this thread, he suggests 1800 calories for women. My goal is to eat between 1500 -- 1800. Just as I am uncomfortable on extremely low calories (except to stop a stall, maybe), I am uncomfortable eating more than I feel like eating just to be politically correct. I feel ill at ease posting my fitday chart and then being told to up my calories.

I spent some time last night surfing the net, looking for discussions about the 10X business and the ideal caloric intake for ketogenic diets. I couldn't find anything that specifically recommended 10x (not to mention 10X to 12X!). All discussions, that I found, of caloric intake to meet basal metabolic rate discuss how to calibrate food intake taking into consideration one's own metabolic reactions.

Over and over I found the precaution that one does not want to eat too much. One wants to strike a balance that is right for one's self.

I would be a lot more comfortable if each time someone invokved the 10x guideline to tell someone else what to eat, a small speech about how each person is different and must learn to understand their individual metabolism was included.

We have all kinds of folks addressing a myriad of health goals. A person near their ideal body fat rate has different issues about calorie needs than someone, like me, with 85% body fat. I am not trying to eat to build muscles, I am trying to guide my body to eat some of my fat along with the food I feed it each day.

One rule does not fit all.

I agree with Isabelle 100%. I think far too much is made of the 10x guideline. For a lot of people it doesn't work. As Isabelle said, Dr. Atkins suggests 1800 calories, and I think the Dr. should know. If fact, he also states that if you stick to a 1,000 calorie diet while doing "Atkins" the weight will come off that much faster. He also states over and over that doing Atkins is not a licence to overeat. So don't be so hard on someone who is just stating the facts. There are others who don't agree with the 10X guideline.

labonbon...

Regarding that "stick with a 1,000 calorie diet while doing Atkins" thing. I think you may be confusing that with the fat fast, which Atkins by no means suggests that anyone "stick with". As a matter of fact, he strongly discourages anyone who is not metabolically resistant from even trying it. The fat fast in Atkins' book is followed for 4-5 days followed by a modified fat fast of roughly 1,200 calories a day for a week, then back to induction levels again (see pgs 272-274 DANDR 2001 edition). As you can see, even the metabolically resistant don't stay on that low a calorie level for long.
It's been stated over and over that the 10-12x your body weight in calories is a guideline, not a law or even a hard and fast rule. It won't work for everyone, but it's a place to start, especially for those who have been on low calorie/low fat diets. Some lucky people find that they can consume even more calories than that and still lose weight on low carb, others find that they need slightly less. We all have to find our own levels, but as I said before, it's a place to start. Personally, I would rather see someone stall because of too many calories and have to adjust down a bit than stall because they are consuming too few calories and have permanently reset their metabolisms to a lower rate and will then be stuck having to go no higher than that for the rest of their lives or gain weight. Better to go too high and have to adjust down than go too low and not be able to adjust up.

I think what agonycat and others are saying, Isabel, is that they see a lot of people coming in and out of here, who's bodies are severely damaged, and whose MINDS are also severely damaged by low-calorie dieting. The fact of the matter is, 1000 calorie diets are unhealthy for EVERYONE! If you have to eat that little to lose weight, it might be a good time to take a few months to heal your metabolism properly and allow yourself to eat what your body really needs. Personally, I think that at your weight, that aiming for over 2500 calories may be too ambitious, but please, please please don't go below 1500. My recommendation is to just have sporadic high calorie days, to keep your body guessing. I'm sorry you stalled, but why so angry? It all comes off in good time, and the slower it goes, honestly, the easier it stays away!

Labonbon: you are incorrect about Atkins recommending 1000 calorie diets. I think you are refering to his fat fast, which he only recommends for those who are severely metabolically resistant and only for a short amount of time. Do you have an old version of his book, by chance?

Also (and this is to all the newbies) keep in mind that all of the mentors and moderators here have done a lot of research into this. There are other low carb books out there that have more complicated explanations and above and beyond that, there are millions of science-based articles in well respected journals about a myriad of diet-related minutiae, including metabolism. My recommendation is this (and this is coming from someone who is on Atkins): don't take DANDR as the absolute truth.

Peace

Oops, you got there first Lisa N

Gracie....you're absolutely right. I've seen people who try to low carb on 800-1,000 calories a day and it scares me. Most people who try that have no idea what they are doing to their bodies or their metabolisms, but many are not very happy when told that they need to eat more than that. I can imagine that they are thinking "are you crazy? I can't even lose on 1,000 calories a day. What's going to happen if I raise it to 2,000?". What's likely to happen is that yes, they may gain a few pounds at first, but they will hopefully also begin to heal their metabolisms so that they will no longer need to starve themselves to lose weight. This board is about more than just weight loss. It's also about eating healthy for life and having a healthy attitude towards food. I'm very grateful for all the support and advice that I've received here even if I haven't always agreed with it. The mods, admins and mentors put in a lot of hours of their own time to help others succeed and sometimes get beat up for doing it. Sometimes you just have to take the good and ignore the rest, but I never do that without at least considering that the person giving advice just might be right and I just might be wrong.

Just for the record, I'm not a follower of the 10x guidline, yet I'm quite accepted around here

The idea of the 10x is quite popular on our forum, simply because many of our members follow it and believe in it.

There's no politically correct policy to enforce it or shove it down anyone's throat. Otherwise, you'll find my journal full of that. We have members trying various things, including none low-carb plans, and it has never been an issue. If you don't agree with the 10x theory, just say so. But it's hard to stop people from saying what they think, just because you don't agree with them.

Wa'il

I too have always felt accepted around here. I love this forum. This place helped me to change my life and has assisted me in losing 4 dress sizes. This forum had helped me become the healthiest I have ever been in my life. That said, I have extremely STRONG objections to the 10-12 guideline repeatedly being offered up to LCers when advice/assistance is requested:

Objections to advising the 'guideline' calories times 10-12 body weight:

1. I have given up 30 years of low cal/low fat dieting. My LC book -- Atkins, Protein Power, Schwarzbein Principle, SugarBusters, etc. -- recommends against counting calories or even thinking about them! and boy am I relieved. HOWEVER, I joined this wonderful forum and I am suddenly asked to tally my calories to make sure I am eating enough. What is this? I had a hard enough time counting them down in the old days. Now I am asked to tally upward? What is wrong with me and where did I miss this in my book? I will buy another LC book. Again, nothing regarding 10-12 x guideline? What is wrong with me? I reread the books over and over and don't see any mention of this statement, whether as a guideline, suggestion or rule. In fact, all I notice is that I am not really meant to calculate calories! What did I miss? Why should I have to count calories AT ALL?

2. Well, ok, I guess I missed this in my LC books. If I must calculate my calories according to 10-12 times my CURRENT body weight, then I am on a diet: As I lose weight, I must accordingly reduce my calories. If I am to tally my caloric needs in terms of my body weight, then I am constantly reducing calories to comply with the said equation. As my body weight reduces, so do my calories, right..... ??Or, is it true that my heaviest weight--my start weight--for some strange reason serves as a constant in this bizarre formulation? Even if I weigh 350 pounds, comply with the guideline and thus begin my LC journey eating 3500 calories, I guess I will have to figure out a way to remain at this number for the rest of my life. The alternative, again, is constant reduction of calories in relation to reduction of body weight. This is a DIET, not a healthy WOE.

3. I TRY out the 10-12 forumula and immediately feel sick, stuffed, confused and strangely as if I am on a diet. What am I missing that everyone else at the forum is getting? Eating to fulfill a caloric requirement is not working for me. It didn't work in the past and it is not working now. Though now I am attempting to UP my calories, I feel oddly the same as I did when I tried to RESTRICT them! Why can I not just eat and count up my simple 25 carbs and go with what I learned in my books?

4. Low carb MDs suggest not to count calories at all.

I quote:

Dr. Schwarzbein from page 259 of TSP:
Do not count calories, weigh food or count fat grams. Calculating and focusing on numbers causes an unhealthy obsession with food.

Dr. Atkins, from AtkinsCenter FAQ:

I'm used to counting calories. How many am I allowed on Induction?

There is no need to count calories. The Atkins Nutritional Approach counts grams of carbohydrates instead of calories. In Induction, you are allowed 20 grams of carbohydrates. When you progress to Ongoing Weight Loss, you gradually add carbohydrates in 5-gram increments as you move toward Pre-Maintenance, and finally to the Lifetime Maintenance phases of Atkins. Although there is no need to count calories, they do count. Gaining weight results from taking in more calories than you expend through exercise, thermogenesis (the body’s own heat production) and other metabolic functions. Research has shown that on a controlled carbohydrate program, more calories are burned than on a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet, so there is a certain metabolic advantage to the controlled carb approach. But understand that this does not give you a license to gorge.

If you are used to counting calories and it makes you uneasy to not do so, know that women usually can safely consume 1,800 calories a day and still lose weight; men can typically take in 2,000 calories, and in some cases more.