But taking the risk of offending someone didn't stop you from posting, did it? And that's the whole point of everything that's being said here. We put thoughts and suggestions "out there" and hope it helps.

I've received answers that could be interpreted as "stern criticism" too, but at the time it is exactly what I needed to hear and absolutely saved me from failing. I am eternally grateful for that criticism!!

I think we can all agree that we're all just doing the best we can, with the best of intentions. We can't be all things to all people.

Rob, I'm so happy that you found a "formula" that brings you success. I'll definitely be visiting your journal to see how you're progressing!!! Maybe I'll be asking you for some advice !!

So now that you are a bit further along and settled into this WOL, what would you tell a beginner that comes in all stressed about "needing" to lose 60 pounds by the end of August? Would informing them that such expectations are unrealistic, almost certainly unobtainable, and unhealthy if they could be obtained count as "criticism"? Does being "supportive" mean cheering them on and encouraging them to try to lose at that rate?

Or is the difference between "criticism" and "support" more in the manner in which information is conveyed and not the nature of information itself? Is the key concept more an issue of tact and diplomacy?

What would I tell such a newbie? I assume that's a rhetorical question, since you probably already know the answer . It is impossible for me to support that which I don't believe and have faith in. So my advice might easily be taken as criticism....no doubt about it.

I think the difference between "criticism" and "support" lies in the person asking for the advice.... and whether or not what he is told is what he WANTS to hear or what he is READY to hear. Granted, there are ways of giving advice that are gentle and some ways are more direct. I respond better to the direct approach. Some respond better to the gentle approach. Thankfully we have a wide variety of members and mentors that fit each description.

Actually, the question was for Rob. Should have made that clear. You're right - I KNOW what you would likely say!

And, yes, so much of whether something gets interpretted as criticism or support depends on the person receiving the input. The best we can do is phrase things so as to minimize the sting it might have - but even then some people are not going to receive it well unless it conforms to THEIR party line.

But if we let that stop us from offering the insight and information, then, IMNSHO, we have defeated the main purpose of the forum altogether.

I think this debate is very good. It has given a lot of people a few things to think about. I would imagine that several people will be a bit more tactful in how they convey certain types of information. And I suspect that more than one person has taken the information offered by LC Sponge at the beginning to heart and grown in the right direction as a result. Many of the others are at least more aware of the direction they need to go even if they aren't ready to move their quite yet.

hi TeriDoodle and Wbahn,


What almost unsettled me was the big stick that some people here tend to wave , or the " listen to me , I know best attitude" and we all are aware of how many Low Carb experts this site attracts LOL. Another thing that I found irritating was the somewhat patronising attitude at times . I felt , hell , they dont know how frustrated I feel as they've all lost their weight already . LOL .

Cos I have a science backround , I decided to go and educate myself cos I dont believe in magic and I read and read and read around the subject till I felt confident how to progress . I do feel critical of Atkins though because it lead me to believe that free=free . But not for me !! maybe for others ?


I want action dude ! I want to see it happening , not imagine that it is happening ,and I will remain on 20 g Carbs until I am at least 75% gone and I will treat myself with sweetened creme fraiche ( extra thick ) when I feel deprived , it is heavenly !!

I know that people have good intentions , thats why I stuck it out .




Rob

I don't know what you are referring to by "free=free". If you meant "fat=free" and, by that, meant that you are free to eat unlimited amounts of fat then, in fairness to the good doc, he does point out in a number of places that his "Nutritional Approach" is NOT a license to gorge yourself - on fat or anything else. But I agree that a casual reading does tend to convey that message throughout much of the book.

I can assure you that I am critical of Dr. A on a few points as well. I understand that he is targetting a particular audience, that he has to be sufficiently appealing to get that audience to listen, and that he has to play some psychological games in order to be effective with much of that audience. That doesn't mean I like it.

I'm also critical of the Eades and all of the other people I have read one points scattered here or there - and, as I'm sure you've found out, that's one of the big advantages of reading as many of the LC books as possible. You get to take the average, fill in holes, and throw out the excesses.

As far as sticking to 20g a day until you reach 75% - if that works for you then go for it. Do be aware that many people (not all) that have tried that have struggled with boredom and frustration more than they needed to and, more importantly, many people have seen slowing of their weight loss and eventual stall as their body adjusted to such a low, sustained carb intake and they found that their weight loss resumed or sped up after increasing their carbs moderately. So keep that in mind in case you run into any difficulties down the road.

Cheers!

I would venture to guess that 90% of the people who have reached goal went through hell and high water to get there....and they do very much understand frustration. They also understand what it takes to move through it, based on their own experience. I'm very thankful that they are willing to take the time to pass along their expertise on to me.

But I understand where you're coming from, too! You sound as if you have a personality much like Nat's .... she would never sit still for someone just telling her to "be patient." She's done hundreds of hours of research, applied it and then reported back to us what she's learned. (What a blessing!) It's just a matter of how we each approach this challenge of weight loss.... obviously it's quite an emotionally charged issue for many. It's important to all of us.

Rob, I have to admit that I abolutely don't see your point. You'll notice that I asked, and so did Bill, about which part of the first post was harsh or a cause for disagreement.

No response, just generalities about people who know it all etc., which doesn't sound like anyone I know here, and has absolutely no relation to the issue at hand.

On the other hand, I personally avoid some members, who will never accept answer they don't want to hear. And in many cases, you can tell by the way the question was asked.

It's an absolute no-win situation. If you answer their questions, they bark at you that you're a "know it all". If you don't answer their questions, they bark at you any way "how come no one answerd my question".

If you really want only a specific range of acceptable answers, the best way is to ask multiple choice questions, and leave an option for "none of the above" to be on the safe side. This way you won't find specific answers harsh.

I'm fully aware my above statement will be written off by many as another "know it all" answer, but that's how I feel towards members who will not let you support them, even if you want to.

I have no grudge against such newbies, and I know of many who came back later (after driving themselves nutts and giving up for a few months) once they realised it's not a quick fix, and you can't notice losses within the day, let alone on daily bases.

Wa'il

There's those who may not know it all, but certainly know a lot. The voice of experience is a powerful thing and shouldn't be written off lightly just because you don't happen to like what that voice is saying at the moment. Advice is just that...advice. It does no good if the person it is intended for does not receive it and act on it, but it has to be THEIR choice; they either accept it or they don't. Should that stop those who are more experienced and farther along the low carb journey than others from offering advice? I don't think so. Does that mean you have to follow every bit of advice offered? Nope. If you don't agree or are not ready to hear the advice given, set it aside and maybe come back to it later when you are at a better place or more in a frame of mind to consider it, but don't write it off entirely just because it hits a sore nerve or you don't like the spirit in which you perceive it be offered. Take the good, ignore the bad.

This is such a great thread.....still going strong, never out of style.
A MUST!
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