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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Dec-20-01, 05:36
shandyAndy shandyAndy is offline
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Posts: 50
 
Plan: Life without bread
Stats: 200/175/170
BF:
Progress: 83%
Location: UK
Question Some questions about low carb dieting

hi
I'm thinking of starting a low carb diet full time but first i have some questions that need answering.

First of all. I need to be convinced that low carb dieting really is healthier than vegan or high card dieting. I've read "Life without bread" , Dr Atkins book and the blood type diet book. By far the most convincing is the "life without bread" book. However it doesn't answer all my questions.

Firstly, the majority opinion among the health community, for whatever reason, is that the rural chinese diet, japenese, okinawan and to some extent the meditarian diet are the healthiest. I can see how perhaps that people who have lived for long periods in these countries may have well and truly adapted to their diets and thus find them healthy. The problem i have is that, these diets supposedly produce low cancer rates, low heart disease and a long life. This can be prooved quite easily by studying the elderly in these areas and their life long diet.

There are no elderly people around today who have followed a low carb diet all their lives to give a measure of how healthy their life has been. At least not in any reasonable amount. Why did the paleolithic people die mostly in middle age? Did they all commit ritual suicide or all happen to be coincidentally killed around that time (little far fetched)?

Although "Life without bread" is fairly convincing, i cannot objectivly critisize it purely because i am not a medical nutritionist with the knowledge and ability to see the flaws in any of the authors arguments. Its all too easy to convince somone who desperately wants to lose weight that it can be done so easily and much more healthily by eating the food we love.

Apart from that, all these nutritionists who back the lc diet talk of agriculture as the downfall of the human race. Perhaps we are supposed to adapt to this diet, and do our children a favour. Look at all the things we have achieved since agriculture first started. They would of not been possible without agriculture.

There are other problems with meat too. Mad cow disease and foot and mouth. Seems like were at a much greater risk.

Anyone use the lc diet who is physically active here? I practice martial arts and i like to work out in the gym and i need the energy to do so, anyone have experience with that?

Ok, some more simple questions now. On the "life without bread" diet can i eat as many vegetables as i want or do they count towards my daily bread count thing? Can i consume as much milk, cream and cheese as i want or does that count too?
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Dec-20-01, 07:47
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
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Posts: 11,512
 
Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"
BF:
Progress: 100%
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Andy, welcome to the forum.

To answer two of your questions; Yes, there are many people who follow LC plans who are very active. I invite you to take a look at my Gym Log in the Exercise forum for one example. We also have a resident Body builder following a LC plan, Trainerdan who co-moderates the Exercise forum , have a looksee when you get the opportunity.

As for convincing you that LC is healthy, only you can do that. Of course you need the proper information. I suggest chekcing out the link at the top of every page "Low Carb Studies" for some emperical evidence. I also suggest you get yourself a copy of "Protein Power". The Eades go into great detail explaining the how's and why's of LCing and it's benefits for your health. It is by far the most scientific of the LC plans; there is a brief synopsis of it here . Neanderthin is another good read if you're looking for evidence that this is the way we were meant to eat. FYI, many of the LC plans are described here in detail with sample menus.

Happy reading
Nat
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Dec-20-01, 09:19
agonycat's Avatar
agonycat agonycat is offline
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Posts: 3,473
 
Plan: AHP&FP
Stats: 197/125/137 Female 5' 6"
BF:42%/22%/21%
Progress: 120%
Location: Dallas, Texas
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Only you can convince yourself that this diet is for you.

Pretty much all of us can go on about how great we are feeling, how our blood chemistry has changed for the better since being on this way of life and how easy the weight melts off.

We can tell you how much more energetic we are feeling and a since of well being. However in the end it is really a personal choice that no one should make for you, nor debate you on the issue of vegan vs low carb. We are not medical or nutritional professionals, we only know of our experiences while being on this way of life. On this forum is listed studies done by doctors, and research centers, there are success stories of those that have lost the weight and how they feel.

"Why did the paleolithic people die mostly in middle age", why do most of us die? Old age, medical problems, climate changes, animal attacks, wars, I could go on but I think you get the point. I wouldn't say they died because of what they were eating, that would be silly now wouldn't it, I mean there are a lot of americans today dying because of what they eat, but is that the overall cause of death?

Nat has pointed out some very solid reading for you. Best thing we do here is arm people with enough solid information that they can make the right choice for them.

Good luck to you!
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Dec-20-01, 10:11
gwilson38 gwilson38 is offline
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Posts: 1,170
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 188/139/140
BF:
Progress: 102%
Location: alberta/canada
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Hi Andy..not sure if I can answer your questions but I will let U know how I feel and thats WONDERFUL. I have never felt better in my adult life. Im 37 and have lived with a chronic condition since I was a kid [ fibromyalgia] I did years of yo-yo dieting and diet pills none of which kept my weight off or my health good. I was skeptical at 1st too but now I have been maintaining for over 3-4 months now and each week it gets easier to believe this is the WOL for me. As for being active. Before low-carbing because of my medical condition I could hardly walk upstairs. Im now off my meds, I workout 4-5 times a week AND I belong to a competitive dance group. I dont feel like by the way I eat I am missing anything...in fact I feel I have added to my whole life experience.
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Dec-20-01, 10:24
shandyAndy shandyAndy is offline
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Posts: 50
 
Plan: Life without bread
Stats: 200/175/170
BF:
Progress: 83%
Location: UK
Default Thanks

Thanks for your replies. I guess your right about the reading but there is still that problem of being properly objective when i'm not an expert. As for books, has anyone read "life without bread"? If so, are there any better books than that in terms of evidence? The book is very convincing and uses a lot of scientific theory and evidence (which i assume is true) to back up its claims.

Also which is the best plan to follow? Do they vary much? Has anyone tried the life without bread plan? Which plan is the least restrictive to follow? Thanks again.

p.s. can anyone explain the healthy rural chinese japenese thingy ( i know they are short but they live a long time)?
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Dec-20-01, 10:38
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
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Posts: 11,512
 
Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default Re: Thanks

Quote:
Originally posted by shandyAndy
As for books, has anyone read "life without bread"? If so, are there any better books than that in terms of evidence? The book is very convincing and uses a lot of scientific theory and evidence (which i assume is true) to back up its claims.



I suggest, again, picking up Protein Power and/or Protein Power Lifeplan. They both include the scientific data behind LCing and PPLP discusses the Asian / rice / high carb issue (which incidentally doesn't hold up to close scrutiny when rates of heart disease and stroke are examined)

Nat
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Dec-20-01, 10:54
razzle razzle is offline
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Posts: 2,193
 
Plan: mostly paleo
Stats: //
BF:also don't care
Progress: 100%
Location: West Coast, USA
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Hi Andy,

Some informational sources you might look at on the net are

http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/paleodiet/index.shtml

http://www.lowcarbretreat.com/josh_...owcarb_med.html

http://ajdubre.tripod.com/Health/So...ietaryFat0.html

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm

I eat only free-range beef and organic fertile eggs from uncaged hens. Some fascinating info on beef (and sources in US for it) is at

http://www.eatwild.com/index.html

Ditto Nat on reading PPLP. That'll all keep you busy for a couple weeks!

I exercise, sometimes a lot, sometimes moderately. Personally, I have found a difference in performance--or perhaps, more accurately, in feel. I can run 10K, but I do feel pretty worn out doing so. I recover quickly, my times are the same as before, but I suppose the fact that you move through the ATP/glycogen stores SO quickly as a LC eater and start burning fat quickly helps to explain that. I've realized I feel better if I do intervals instead. Weightlifting, this has only helped. I put on muscle much more easily, perhaps from all the high-quality protein I eat (without guilt!)

Oh yes, and the Chinese rates of heart disease are as bad for men as the US rates; for women....Chinese heart disease rates are the highest in the world.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Dec-20-01, 10:58
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Karen Karen is offline
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Posts: 12,775
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: -/-/- Female 5 feet 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
p.s. can anyone explain the healthy rural chinese japenese thingy ( i know they are short but they live a long time)?


I think you will find that any culture that follows seasonal eating will be healthier. The relationship to food is healthier because they grew it and understand it's value. They respect and understand the power of sugar, using it for celebratory occasions.

NA culture takes almost everything for granted. You can stuff yourself full of anything, any time of the day here, regardless of the season.

Drastic imbalance requires drastic measures to create balance.

None of us was an "expert" when we started, but we came to understand through our own experience and the experience of others the realm of possibilities and what works. Because of our imbalance LC is more than a diet, it's a way of life. Some people have serious food addiction problems, and most realize that they are addicted to carbohydrates when they stop using them. Working any LC plan is simple in theory, but it's not easy.

On the front page, left hand column, there is a link to the synopsis of different LC plans.

How do you choose a plan? Lots of whole grains and fruit? White bread and candy? Lots of skim milk and granola? Processed foods? Ice cream and cake? Low fat dieting?

You can only get well again by swinging far to the other side and eliminating most of it. What made you fat in the first place?


Karen
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Dec-20-01, 15:14
Heeligan2's Avatar
Heeligan2 Heeligan2 is offline
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Posts: 34
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: //
BF:
Progress:
Default scientific analysis

When I first became interested in this WOE I went in search of the "other side of the story" to try and reach an objective decision.

I found the following site to be very helpful in giving a scientific analysis of the various low carb diets and it also appears to have an objective point of view:

http://www.theidealdiet.com/index.html

The author is an MD who gradually became convinced that a moderately low-carb diet is the healthiest over all. I also have the book and she does a newsletter as well -- all are very helpful on the medical issues.

As far as all the paleolithic people dying at middle age - I believe the Eadeses address this question in their books -- definitely worth reading to answer your health questions!!
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Jan-26-02, 18:53
Andy Davies Andy Davies is offline
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Posts: 1,212
 
Plan: My own (based on a compil
Stats: 333/260/224 Male 73 ins
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Hampshire, England
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Thanks Heeligan 2 - a useful link.

ShandyAndy, sooner or later, you have to stop researching the theory and put it to a practical test.

Just pluck up the courage to test everything you are worried about - cholesterol, blood pressure, weight, whatever else you are concerned about, and go for it! Try the diet for a week. Test the things you can easily check yourself. If things look promising, you could extend the trial. Get some professional "after" tests done. If it works, continue with it. If it doesn't, then give it up. But either way, come back here and tell us what happened. If you spend all your time getting bogged down in theory and not trying anything in practice, how much are you really going to learn?

Incidentally, "Eat Fat and Grow Slim", published by Dr Richard Mackarness in 1958 and 1975, is a book I recommend you to read. It provides a considerable amount of evidence and proof, and should allay even some of your fears. And he's British, by the way. Ran the first obesity clinic ever in the UK (at Basingstoke).

Andy
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Jan-26-02, 19:29
Kent's Avatar
Kent Kent is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 356
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 256/220/215 Male 78 inches
BF:36/28/20
Progress: 88%
Location: Colorado
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The follow link is about the peoples of China and Okinawa and the following text is from the site:

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditi...d_in_china.html

"Before we throw up our hands and decide that no conclusions can be made about diet and health in China, let us turn our attention to the mixed peoples of Okinawa, situated equidistant from Hong Kong and Tokyo. The average lifespan for women in Okinawa is 84 (compared to 79 in American), and the island boasts a disproportionately large number of centenarians. Okinawans have low levels of chronic illness—osteoporosis, cancer, diabetes, atherosclerosis and stroke—compared to America, China and Japan, which allows them to continue to work, even in advanced years. In spite of Okinawa’s horrific role in World War II, as the site of one of the bloodiest battles of the Pacific, Okinawa is a breezy, pleasant place, neither crowded nor polluted, with a strong sense of family and community and where the local people produce much of what they consume.

And what do Okinawans eat? The main meat of the diet is pork, and not the lean cuts only. Okinawan cuisine, according to gerontologist Kazuhiko Taira, “is very healthy—and very, very greasy,” in a 1996 article that appeared in Health Magazine.19 And the whole pig is eaten—everything from “tails to nails.” Local menus offer boiled pigs feet, entrail soup and shredded ears. Pork is cooked in a mixture of soy sauce, ginger, kelp and small amounts of sugar, then sliced and chopped up for stir fry dishes. Okinawans eat about 100 grams of meat per day—compared to 70 in Japan and just over 20 in China—and at least an equal amount of fish, for a total of about 200 grams per day, compared to 280 grams per person per day of meat and fish in America. Lard—not vegetable oil—is used in cooking.

Okinawans also eat plenty of fibrous root crops such as taro and sweet potatoes. They consume rice and noodles, but not as the main component of the diet. They eat a variety of vegetables such as carrots, white radish, cabbage and greens, both fresh and pickled. Bland tofu is part of the diet, consumed in traditional ways, but on the whole Okinawan cuisine is spicy. Pork dishes are flavored with a mixture of ginger and brown sugar, with chili oil and with “the wicked bite of bitter melon.”

Weston Price did not study the peoples of Okinawa, but had he done so, he would have found one more example to support his conclusions—that whole foods, including sufficient animal foods with their fat—are needed for good health and long life, even in the Orient. In fact, the Okinawan example demonstrates the fallacy of today’s politically correct message—that we should emulate the peoples of China by reducing animal products and eating more grains; rather, the Chinese would benefit by adding more strengthening animal foods to their daily fare.

Proponents of the low-fat school argue that the Chinese cannot afford to devote more land to animal husbandry. Consider, however, the fact that the Chinese grasslands, concentrated in the semi-arid lands of the north and west, cover nearly forty percent of China, an area three times that under cultivation. Such lands do not support crop production but are highly suited for grazing purposes—for the production of meat and milk—and many Chinese have proposed that efforts be made in this direction. The Beijing Food Research Institute, however, has opposed such measures. Its director, Wang Qing, who is credited with turning China away from dairy development, contends that cow’s milk is a food for the elite, and dairying much too expensive for China to pursue.20 He argues that the Chinese cannot consume dairy products because they are lactose intolerant—but even the lactose intolerant can consume dairy products in limited amounts21, especially fermented dairy products. Meat and dairy products from land that currently is not being used would provide just those nutrients now lacking in the typical Chinese diet—protein, calcium and fat soluble vitamins. Under Qing’s direction, however, China has opted for increased cultivation of valuable agricultural lands in soybeans, in order to provide factory-produced, mineral-blocking, protein-poor soymilk to the populace."
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  #12   ^
Old Sun, Jan-27-02, 20:33
Andy Davies Andy Davies is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,212
 
Plan: My own (based on a compil
Stats: 333/260/224 Male 73 ins
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Hampshire, England
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Hi Kent - a very impressive piece, which on the whole supports all of our own beliefs.

I have another reference which I must dig out and reproduce here, that also supports the same conclusions.

As an aside, the Director of the Beijing Food Research Institute has a gloriously appropriate name, don't you think?

Andy
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  #13   ^
Old Mon, Sep-09-02, 08:19
shandyAndy shandyAndy is offline
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Posts: 50
 
Plan: Life without bread
Stats: 200/175/170
BF:
Progress: 83%
Location: UK
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Sorry to drag this old message up again but i have one thing to add. Back to my original questions about the okinawans.....There is a book called "The okinawa study". The study is very large and according to the authors does not suggest any of what was said about eating so much pork.

Now, i know they are small and skinny and i do now believe the paleo diet is the right one BUT they do live long and healthy lives on the diet suggested in the aformentioned book! Any one read an decent article debunking that book?

Thanks
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  #14   ^
Old Mon, Sep-09-02, 08:40
Kent's Avatar
Kent Kent is offline
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Posts: 356
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 256/220/215 Male 78 inches
BF:36/28/20
Progress: 88%
Location: Colorado
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Hi ShadyAndy,

The Okinawan Study book is nothing short of a bunch of lies. The author may be vegetarian, I can't remember at this moment and didn't buy the book. I read it in the library. As I recall the correct title is The Okinawan Diet.

Go to the link at The Weston A. Price Foundation in my post above for the truth.

Kent
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  #15   ^
Old Tue, Sep-10-02, 13:00
JimR-OCDS JimR-OCDS is offline
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Posts: 398
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 193/179/165 Male 68 inches
BF:26.5%
Progress: 50%
Location: Massachusetts
Talking

Well, I was stationed in Okinawa for a year, when I served in the Marines, back in 1970. I didn't pay attention to diet while over there, I was only 19 years old and lean and mean. One thing however, is that the climate there is not pleasant during the summer. It is hot and very humid. Also, Okinawain people are very hard working people. The work they did was amazing! Perhaps, another fact for their long-life span might be that before the Japanese took the island back, Okinawians paid no or very little taxes. The US government paid for just about everything. So, if you want better health, pay less taxes!
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