It's not like he's asking her to get a boob job here, just get back to what she had (or rather, didn't have) when they got married.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

The fact that it's under one's control, of course.

What's wrong with needing external validation? I think external validation is like ketosis -- there are situations where it can be a good thing (like keeping one from becoming dangerously overweight), and other situations where it's a pathological condition. Furthermore, I don't think it would necessarily be easier for "Andy" to change this attitude, really change it, than it would be for "Candy" to lose those 30 lbs.

I noticed something while reading through this thread:

potatofree -- starting weight 298, goal 160 = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "if he loves her, he wouldn't need the validation of others..."

ItsTheWooo -- starting weight 280, goal 135 = Morbidly obese
Attitudes: "I think she should lose weight for her, not to impress her husband." and "I do not think she should change only to appease others."

kevjol -- "for me it took deteriorating health issues to finally get me to start taking better care of myself and to start getting healthy" = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "...superficial things should not matter..."

bigguyjonc -- starting weight 354, goal 200 = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "she has to lose weight for herself not because some *ss tells her to or else."

How interesting! It would appear that the people here who believe that the opinions of others shouldn't matter so much tend to have been morbidly obese at one time. Isn't that an amazing coincidence?

Lest you think I'm just poking fun at others here -- just because I don't think there's something necesssarily wrong with needing external validation, doesn't mean that I have a healthy level of this characteristic. Like a lot of nerds, I just don't think about what other people think of how I look. And like you, I was morbidly obese at my peak weight (230). Coincidence? I think not...

Uh, declining to renew one's marriage vows is not a divorce. Marriages don't automatically expire (or if they do, my "wife" and I have been probably been living in sin for a few years -- why don't people tell me these things?!). Renewing vows, especially after just five years of marriage, is an "extra."

The thing you miss is that the opinions of others don't usually motivate people. People who have been fat for a lifetime know it. They don't need to be told so. They (we) understand it intimately, and probably with no small amount of personal, daily horror.

External validation, motivation -- whatever you'd like to call it -- isn't usually very useful to an obese person. He has the facts. He understands the stakes. So yeah, the opinions of others shouldn't matter. They aren't really all that relevant. I don't know of anyone who has been motivated to lose or to make other decisions about self destructive behavior that way. I've got a recovering alcoholic brother. He went to jail. He lost his driver's license. He hit pretty much rock bottom. I seriously doubt ridicule would have motivated him.

It seems that "motivation" and ridicule have gotten mixed up here somehow. Comments like "fat-assery" aren't going to motivate anyone to do anything.

While the issue of Andy and Candy sparked this whole thread, I think there's a larger issue underlying the whole thing and there are a few things that bear discussing.

First: how much extra fat can you have on your body before someone can say that you are no longer acceptable or that you have "let yourself go"? It seeems to me that would be a very subjective thing since some people carry extra weight better than others and what one person considers "beautiful" and "sexy" another person may not. Who sets the standard for what is considered an acceptable body shape/body fat percentage/weight and why should we accept it as valid (health concerns aside here)? In our current society, the thin and beautiful receive validation while the overweight or average looking person does not; the booming plastic surgery business is testament to that, but does this mean we should all fall in with the majority and buy into this idea as valid? The underlying philosophy with that is only the thin and beautiful are worthy of validation/promotion/attention or even being hired as an employee and that a person's worth is determined solely by their apperance.

Second: The prevailing notion that carrying what someone else considers an unacceptable amount of extra pounds suddenly makes you a valid target for verbal abuse, mental abuse, discrimination and deserving of having the support of your spouse or SO withdrawn until you conform to their standards which are often based on unrealistic images of what beauty is. Read some of the comments left for Candy on that website. If those don't qualify as abuse, I don't know what does, and Andy (and to a certain extent, Candy) is willing to subject his wife to this? How would you all feel if Andy stood his wife up on a stage at the local mall and invited these same comments, even if Candy was willing to subject herself to such treatment? I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd be thinking that Andy was the biggest jerk alive and that Candy had no self-respect. How is doing it on the internet any different? Are shaming/badgering/manipulating/threatening valid methods to get someone else to conform to your standards? Are they effective and do the means justify the end? IMO, only the vain or the insecure are motivated by such methods. Ultimately, all of those methods are about one person controlling another and that is not what a healthy relationship should be based on. Should the love between a husband and wife be conditional or unconditional?

Third: The idea that those who are overweight suffer from some sort of moral deficiency or are just plain gluttons. If it was a simple case of eat less/exercise more many of us wouldn't be here because we'd all be at our goal weights and enjoying the "validation" of society. I can't tell you the number of posts I've read from people who have tried that route only to fail miserably or who have "dieted" themselves to their current weight as well as the number of posts from people saying, "I never understood what was making me fat until I understood what carbs and sugars were doing to my body." Yes, there are a certain number of people who can simply eat less and exercise more and lose the weight, but there is (I believe) a much larger portion of the popluation who have metabolic issues with the traditionally recommended weight loss methods of more carbs/less fat/exercise more and are completely unaware of them. They only know that they're doing everything they've been told to do and continue to gain weight. Are these people deserving of our scorn and ridicule? How about those that have medical conditions such as PCOS or hypothyroid which predispose them to weight gain despite their best efforts? Shame them for their condition? Same thing for those that need to take medications that cause weight gain? None of those are things you can see by looking at a fat person and yet we are all willing to judge without hesitation based on the appearance only.

Fourth: If gaining weight and "letting yourself go" are disrespectful to your mate or SO and justify their withdrawing their love and support or outright verbal and mental abuse, would not eating right, not excercising enough, drinking a bit too much, smoking, etc...also be considered the same and justification for the same? There are a lot of unhealthy thin people in our society as well. Would it be ridiculous for a spouse to say, "Whoa, babe...you've got high blood pressure from all those salty foods you've been eating...you're dissin' me!" or "I'd better see you spending more time at the gym or it's over for us, dude."? Granted, Andy's comment about renewing his marriage vows if the votes for Candy to stay as she is win out or she has 2 years to lose the 30 pounds isn't threatening divorce, it's a step in that direction because the underlying thought there is "if everyone thinks you need to drop the weight, babe, and you don't then I'm withdrawing my commitment to you unless or until you comply."

Ultimately, it's not so much an issue of whether or not Candy should drop the weight, it's really an issue about what determines a person's worth and makes them deserving of "validation" (whatever that may be), the love and support of their spouse or SO and the attitude that only thin and beautiful are deserving of such things.

Let's examine that. I'm in agreement that fat is under the control of the fat person, of course. We are all responsible for our condition, whatever that is. However, the degree to which fat people are "held responsible" when compared to other self destructive behaviors is extreme.

After all, smoking costs everyone monetarily in terms of insurance premiums, taxes, healthcare costs, and misery at least as much as fat does. But smokers aren't ridiculed in most every public forum. The same comparison could be made for alcoholics or drug users. Robert Downey Junior probably advanced his career with his addictions (he certainly didn't slow it down). If he'd done something similarly self destructive -- say, gain 100 pounds of fat -- would that have been the case?

Another self inflicted flaw might be someone who routinely drives carelessly and causes his face to be hideously burned in a crash, or puts himself into a wheelchair. Is it all right to ridicule that person because "he did it to himself?" it was under his control, too.

I'm not saying the fat aren't responsible for what they (we) have done to ourselves. I loathe the fat acceptance movement because it's predicated on a Big Lie. And I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for airlines to charge a person who takes up two seats for the privilege.

But I am saying that in significant ways, the fat tend to be held responsible, to pay the social price for that flaw than other self destructive behaviors.

potatofree -- starting weight 298, goal 160 = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "if he loves her, he wouldn't need the validation of others..."

True love and respect would involve a heartfelt discussion of the issue.. not public humiliation. Personally, if this site IS for real, I think they're both more interested in being a martyr than working on the REAL issues in their marriage.

MY weight and the weight of others has some bearing on our perception. Having "been there" and felt the humiliation first-hand gives you a bit more sensitivity. My father died from complications of "stomach stapling" surgery, and as a teenager, I remember being taunted about HIS weight, and remember how he hid from the world out of shame. Honestly, at the point of the surgery, his weight was no longer under his control. He even tried the liquid diets, and managed to gain on 800 calories a day! (And I do know he didn't cheat, since it was administered in a hospital.) He would rather take the chance that the surgery would kill him than face the pain and humiliation any longer.

Fast forward a decade to when MY weight started to soar... feeling the humiliation he died to avoid left a mark!

Really? Ask any successful plastic surgeon or salesperson of luxury goods. I'll bet he/she would disagree.

No kidding! That's one reason (among others) that obese people get that way.

To paraphrase G. B. Shaw, the ways of our tribe (overweight/obese people) are NOT the laws of psychology. Just because you or I are not motivated by the opinions of others to lose weight, or not gain it in the first place, does not mean that other people are not.

Imagine yourself in a nice restaurant, filled with fashionably slim people wearing expensive clothes. If the waiter asks a customer if she'd like to order dessert, she's probably not going to say "I really want that Death By Chocolate, but I worry about the opinions of others," in a loud, clear voice. No, she's probably just going to say, "No, thank you." How would you know what her motivations were in that case?

I agree. And I'm not going to say that any alcoholic would be all right if he/she were motivated by the opinions of others. Alcoholics have many things going on.

Don't look at me, take that up with speakerguy. I know what I mean by motivation, and it usually doesn't have anything to do with comments like "fat-assery".

I feel like I should have put an end date on this thread...I hope people are getting a lot off their chests.

-mildwild

Hey, you started it!

Which reminds me of this:
Basil Fawlty: Is something wrong?
4th German: Will you please stop talking about the war?
Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it!
4th German: We did not!
Basil Fawlty: Yes you did, you invaded Poland!

<giggle> And I actually USED the term "fat-assery" today.... if it's not a real word, it should be!

See also:
half-assery
jack-assery
kick-assery
dumb-assery

I for one am grateful to you for starting this interesting thread. When I first joined lowcarber.org, I enjoyed reading the threads in the War Zone, but after a while they all seemed to have degenerated into "Did too!" "Did not!" and "You're a moron!" "I know you are, but what am I?!" A new topic is appreciated.

Acceptable to whom, and for what? If "Candy" packs on another 50 or so pounds, do you think that "Andy" should be expected to respond sexually to "Candy" as eagerly as he did when they were first married? If not, then isn't letting her know this when she's "only" 50 or so pounds overweight a better idea than waiting until she's completely unattractive (in his eyes)?


Yes, it is. What about it? In human relationships, "subjective" does not equal "invalid" (unless you're an Objectivist, in which case I think you've got bigger problems than being a few pounds overweight (kidding))

If you don't think the majority's view is valid, what do you care for their opinions at all, at all?

Not to belabor the obvious, but the relationship between husband and wife ("Andy" and "Candy" in this case) is different from the relationship between employer and employee. For example, if my boss said, "We're not going to promote you to an outside sales position until you lose 50 pounds, because we think our customers don't want to deal with a fat guy," I would think he was WAY out of line. OTOH, if my wife said, "I'm afraid that if you gain much more weight, I won't want to have sex with you anymore," I would take that to heart. Different relationships, different rules.


I'll agree that if that Web site was a sincere attempt at an "intervention" (and not a joke), it was a remarkably clumsy one -- perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever seen a well-meaning husband do.

Yes, if they work

"Should" has to be one of the most useless words in the English language. Relationships are what they are. Whether "Andy" "should" feel just the same about his wife at 30 or 50 or 100 pounds over her wedding weight is irrelevant -- the fact is, he does feel differently about her. Do you think he should just pretend he doesn't care that she's slowly becoming less attractive to him, or is it better to bring it out in the open now? (leaving aside the question of whether that Web site was a good way to address the situation, because it wasn't, IMO).

Some people feel that homosexuals "should" not feel attraction to members of their own sex, but "should" rather be attracted to the opposite sex -- or at least pretend they're attracted to the opposite sex. Do you agree? Or do you think homosexuals ought to be able to be attracted to whatever they're attracted to? If the latter, why shouldn't "Andy" get the same consideration as a homosexual?


"Deserving" -- that's right up there with "should" when it comes to utility, as Gandalf might have said to Frodo. Does "Candy" "deserve" to have "Andy" desire her if she's 100 pounds overweight? It's irrelevant -- the fact is, he probably won't.