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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Feb-11-03, 11:44
Lessara's Avatar
Lessara Lessara is offline
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Default "How Protein Diets Work"

This was a very interesting article and it brought out some good points in low carbing, however at the end they used a doctor who said basically he would tell his patients not to eat so much beef and to eat "fish, lowfat dairy, and legumes" for protein.
Is Beef really that bad??http://content.health.msn.com/conte...le/60/67178.htm
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Feb-11-03, 16:45
bluesmoke bluesmoke is offline
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Along with the other food myth handsed out by the "experts", is the one saying saturated fat will plug your arteries and kill you. While the dangers of saturated fat and cholesterol are not backed by any research, the belief doesn't go away, even among professionals who should know better. Nyah Levi.
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Feb-11-03, 20:30
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Angeline Angeline is offline
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I ran into some interesting information regarding saturated fat. I guess I always assumed that saturated fat was a natural ever- present part of meat. I discovered that actually it's a rather recent phenomena, mostly due to the fact that livestock tends to be fed grain. This is good food for thought...


Quote:
Saturated/unsaturated fat composition of wild animal tissues, and consumption levels in modern vs. pre-agricultural peoples


Our data on the fatty-acid distribution in tissues of wild animals presented at a recent conference on the return of n3 fats to the food supply, held at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland has been recently published in World Review of Nutrition and Dietetics. [Cordain et al. 1998]. This data refutes contentions made by some that the overall PUFA in wild-animal tissues is low. To the contrary, it is relatively high in both brain (26%) and muscle (36%) as our data shows, and which corroborates earlier work of Crawford et al. [1969].

The difference in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) between the Western diet and the so-called "paleolithic diet" is that the PUFAs in the Western diet are predominantly based upon 18-carbon lipids (vegetable oils) with huge amounts of 18:2n6 (linoleic acid) predominating. The PUFA content of the paleolithic diet is higher than that of the Western diet (19.2% vs. 12.7% [Bang and Dyerberg 1980]) with much higher levels of HUFA (>20-carbon lipids) of both the n6 and n3 families.

Once again, it should be emphasized as well that while pre-agricultural peoples certainly did consume saturated fat, it cannot compare with the levels consumed by modern Western populations. Bang and Dyerberg's data [1980] on Eskimo populations who ate a high-meat diet is particularly illustrative of this. Of the total dietary fats, saturated fats comprised 22.8% in Inuit people whereas saturated fats comprised 52.7% of the total dietary fats in a control population of Danes. To point to saturated fat consumption in pre-agricultural groups as license to eat freely of such fats ignores the ecological constraints that would have made modern levels of consumption highly unlikely for our paleolithic ancestors, and ignores as well the voluminous clinical data that shows their detrimental effects.

High levels of saturated fat consumption on a year-round basis only became possible when domesticated animals were bred and fed in a manner which allowed accumulation of depot fat on a year-round basis. Wild animals almost always show a seasonal variation in storage fat, and even the very fattest wild land mammals contain 60-75% less total fat than the average domesticated animal. Thus, until the advent of the "Agricultural Revolution" 10,000 years ago, it would have been extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible, to eat high levels of saturated fat on a daily basis throughout the year.


and

Quote:
Saturated animal fats in overall dietary context. However, I cannot agree with the statement that saturated fats from animals in modern diets have nothing to do with CHD. It may be possible that the hypercholesterolemic effects of saturated fats (12:0, 14:0, 16:0) can be negated or somewhat ameliorated by extremely low levels of dietary carbohydrates (particularly in insulin-resistant subjects) or by high levels of dietary protein (>20% of total calories) via protein's VLDL-suppressing effects [Kalopissis et al. 1995].
However, it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that dietary saturated fats (12:0, 14:0, and 16:0) elevate serum cholesterol levels within the context of the "average American diet." A recent meta-analysis of 224 published studies encompassing 8,143 subjects (many under metabolic ward conditions) has unequivocally demonstrated the hypercholesterolemic effect of dietary saturated fats [Howell et al. 1997]. The cellular basis for this observation stems from the regulation of low-density lipoproteins (LDLs). When the amount of cholesterol or saturated fat coming into the body is increased, there is an expansion of the sterol pools within liver cells, and to a lesser extent, peripheral cells, which causes a down-regulation of LDL receptors. As a consequence, LDL in plasma increases [Dietschy 1997].

Some have argued that increases in total plasma cholesterol and LDL may not necessarily have a direct relationship to mortality from CHD [Stamler et al. 1986]. Clearly, there are a wide variety of independent risk factors for CHD including hypertension, homocysteine (increased by deficiencies primarily in folate, vitamin B-6, and secondarily in B-12), catecholamines, n6/n3 fatty-acid ratio, antioxidant status (vitamins E, C, beta-carotene, phytochemicals, etc.), dietary fiber, cigarette smoking, and ethanol (alcohol) consumption, which influence a variety of physiological systems involved with CHD. However, there is powerful evidence (n = 356,222) to indicate that the relationship between serum cholesterol levels and the risk of premature death from CHD is, nevertheless, continuous and graded [Stamler et al. 1986].

Therefore, the recommendation by some that it is harmless to consume high levels of dietary saturated fats within the context of the "average American diet" appears to not only be erroneous, but probably deadly. Our hunter-gatherer ancestors consumed high levels of animal food (probably >55% of their total daily calories); however, the context under which this was done was much different than present-day conditions.

As I have previously mentioned, the carbohydrate content of the diet was low (~<35% of total calories) and composed of plant foods with high soluble fiber and low starch content. The protein content of the diet would have exceeded 20% and may have been as high as 30-40%. The polyunsaturated fats consumed would have had a low n6/n3 ratio, and there would have been both ample levels of 20 and 22-carbon fats of both the n6 and n3 variety. Since marrow contains 70-75% monounsaturated fats and was a favored food, it is likely that although the fat content of the diet may have been as high as 40%, it was composed of not only a much more favorable n6/n3 polyunsaturated fat ratio, but higher levels of monounsaturated fats and non-atherogenic saturated fats such as stearic acid (18:0) as well.


You can find the reference here

Last edited by Angeline : Tue, Feb-11-03 at 20:32.
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Feb-12-03, 10:23
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PoofieD PoofieD is offline
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Default Then let me throw you a curve ball

The very high in saturated fat coconut oil that many native peoples use as their every day all day fat.
And.. the still improving lipid files of so many atkins users that aren't cutting back on saturated fat. Ie butter, cream and red meats.
Just a thought!
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Feb-12-03, 16:08
bluesmoke bluesmoke is offline
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Well I went to site posted by Angeline and what I read casts doubts on The validity of it's pronouncements on saturated fat.


However, it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that dietary saturated fats (12:0, 14:0, and 16:0) elevate serum cholesterol levels within the context of the "average American diet." A recent meta-analysis of 224 published studies encompassing 8,143 subjects (many under metabolic ward conditions) has unequivocally demonstrated the hypercholesterolemic effect of dietary saturated fats [Howell et al. 1997]. The cellular basis for this observation stems from the regulation of low-density lipoproteins (LDLs). When the amount of cholesterol or saturated fat coming into the body is increased, there is an expansion of the sterol pools within liver cells, and to a lesser extent, peripheral cells, which causes a down-regulation of LDL receptors. As a consequence, LDL in plasma increases [Dietschy 1997].

The above statement is in reference the "average American diet". What has been found id that this diet is dangerous only because of it's high carbohydrate level. What happens to any fat in a diet is dependent on the amount of carbohydrate. The recent studies of the Atkins diet have shown a decrease in blood lipids with a high fat and low carbohydrate diet.
Studies of many "primitive" societies, The Masai, Native Australians, Native Americans, and others, have shown these peoples had a great hunger for animal fats, and went out of their way to obtain them and consume them.
Check with any hunter and you will find that wild animals have a good proportion of fat in them. What the omega 3- omega 6 balance was and is is a mater for debate, but there is plenty of cholesterol in wild animal fat.
As reported by Ravnskov in "The Cholesterol Myths" , both the Masai and the Samburu people of Africa consume large quantites of dairy products and thereby fat, and have little or no CHD or arterial blockage.
That the modern diet is not healthy is not in question, but it's french fries, oleo, and snack cakes, not fats.
If you want real info on the various fats, read Dr. Mary Enig's book, "Now Your Fats". Nyah Levi
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Feb-13-03, 07:44
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Angeline Angeline is offline
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Quote:
The above statement is in reference the "average American diet". What has been found id that this diet is dangerous only because of it's high carbohydrate level. What happens to any fat in a diet is dependent on the amount of carbohydrate. The recent studies of the Atkins diet have shown a decrease in blood lipids with a high fat and low carbohydrate diet.


Not that I wish to defend this web site overmuch but in the interest of fairness, I should point out that they do acknowledge that the increases in lipid levels are in the context of a high carbohydrate diet and that things are quite different with a low carbohydrate diet.

In retrospect my quote was too long and I should have restricted myself to the one area that I found significant. That the composition of fat in the meat we eat today is quite different from what our ancestor used to consume.

Oh and Poofie you bring up a good point but the saturated fat in coconut oil in not the same as that found in meat, and coconut oil has all sort of benefits. I found that information here
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Feb-13-03, 11:20
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Lessara Lessara is offline
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Question coconut oil

Angeline
Is there any stores in the US that sells coconut oil that is the healthy kind?

Have any of you hear that red meat is bad? Why?
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Feb-13-03, 17:47
bluesmoke bluesmoke is offline
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Red meat is supposed to be bad for you because of the belief that level of saturated fats cayysed heart disease. As stared abopve, I don't think the evidence supports this. Nyah levi
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Feb-13-03, 20:48
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Angeline Angeline is offline
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Default

I couldn't say if red meat is bad for you, or harmless.

The article that I read (see my initial post) was a very long and detailed article about what our ancestors ate and of course comparing it to what we eat now. The assumption is that the human race evolved eating a certain diet and that is the one we are most adapted to. If we deviate too much from it, we run into problems. Every low carber is quick to point out that our ancestors ate very little carbs, before the advent of agriculture. Thus we have never evolved to deal with so much carbs and that's why we run into so many problems when we eat carbs.

Our ancestors also ate a lot of meat so that is also pointed out as an example to emulate. What I didn't know and, on reflection, it shouldn't have suprised me, is that meat was quite different in it's fat composition than it is now. I didn't want to start a debate, but I thought that was something interesting and worth pondering.

Oh and regarding coconut oil. I wouldn't know where to get it in the USA, but my first guess would be a health food store.
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