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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Oct-07-03, 15:46
mrfreddy's Avatar
mrfreddy mrfreddy is offline
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Posts: 761
 
Plan: common sense low carb
Stats: 221/190/175 Male 6 feet
BF:27/13/10??
Progress: 67%
Location: New York City
Default NY Times Article compares SB Diet with Atkins

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/07/h...ion/07DIET.html


New Doctor, New Diet, but Still No Cookies
By ABBY GOODNOUGH

IAMI BEACH, Oct. 6 — Theories abound as to what has propelled the South Beach diet to the center of the weight-loss universe since the book bearing its name was published in April. Is it the image it conjures, of bikini-clad models picking at tropical fruit salad between sun-drenched photo shoots? Is it the aqua shimmer of the book jacket, as eye-catching as the surf off Ocean Drive?

Or is it that Dr. Arthur Agatston, the cardiologist behind the latest low-carbohydrate, high-protein diet, is on to something?

Dr. Agatston — whose office is not in South Beach, by the way, but the older, tamer neighborhood to its north — is not far from that giant of diet doctors, the late Dr. Robert Atkins, in his belief that refined sugar and white flour are the villains behind the nation's climbing obesity rate. Like the Atkins diet, the South Beach diet strictly limits bread, potatoes and other carbohydrates, especially during a two-week initiation period, and allows the dieter to eat red meat, eggs and cheese.

But while the Atkins diet allows just about any fatty food that is not also starchy, Dr. Agatston advocates mostly unsaturated fats, like those in olive oil, nuts and oily fish like salmon. Butter is nowhere in the South Beach diet meal plans, nor is bacon or anything fried. The South Beach diet also differs from Atkins in that it allows carbohydrates — though only those high in fiber, like multigrain bread and wild rice.

Dr. Agatston's premise is that most carbohydrate-rich foods are so processed that they immediately turn to sugar in the body. That, Dr. Agatston says, forces a quick spike in blood sugar and nearly as quick a decline. The spikes lead to more hunger, he says, and — this is the part that many experts dispute — to inevitable weight gain.

"Nobody in the history of man ever ate complex carbohydrates like we have," Dr. Agatston said last week during an interview squeezed between a photo shoot and a meeting about his new heart-imaging center, set to open in December. He was late to the interview, so his wife, Sari, a lawyer who is helping with publicity, filled the time by talking about how even she, a bread lover, has come to accept whole-wheat pita instead.

The diet revolves around the glycemic index — the amount that a carbohydrate increases sugar in the blood compared with the amount that the same quantity of white bread raises it. The concept of the index as crucial to weight gain or loss has been around since the early 1980's, when it was used to help people with diabetes choose proper diets. But skeptics — including the American Diabetes Association, which has not endorsed the index — say a food's glycemic index fluctuates depending on how much is eaten and what other foods are eaten.

Foods with a low glycemic index, like lentils, soy milk and low-fat, artificially sweetened yogurt, do not raise blood sugar as quickly and sharply as high-numbered items like gnocchi, baked potatoes and pretzels.

High-glycemic-index foods cause the body to release a lot of insulin, which quickly lowers the blood sugar again and causes hunger to recur, the theory goes. Those with low indexes break down into sugar more slowly, for longer-term energy.

Carrots are shunned, for example, because the body absorbs their sugars rapidly. But Dr. Marion Nestle, chairwoman of the department of nutrition and food studies at New York University, said it would take over a pound of carrots to spike the blood sugar as high as the index warns.

"What it comes down to is that this is a standard 1,200- to 1,400-calorie-a-day diet, so of course people are going to lose weight," Dr. Nestle said. "I do think there's something to the glycemic index, but I just don't think it's the be-all and end-all, and that it's the root of obesity."

Dr. Nestle and other experts said they preferred South Beach to Atkins because it promotes only healthy foods. Several studies suggested the high-fat Atkins diet was safe for the heart in the short term, though Dr. Gary Foster, an author of one study, said the South Beach diet seemed "more informed."

"If this approach says: `Guess what. We think saturated fat is a bad idea,' it will get a greater mass acceptance," said Dr. Foster of the weight and eating disorders program at the University of Pennsylvania.

"If you compare the two menu to menu there is very little difference" between the strict first phases of the Atkins and South Beach diets, said Colette Heimowitz, director of education and research for Atkins Nutritionals. "It's a myth that Atkins is all about meat and discourages healthy fats."

The first two weeks of the South Beach diet are the most difficult, according to testimonials in Dr. Agatston's book, because they allow only foods with the lowest glycemic indexes. Fruits, juices, alcohol, caffeinated coffee and most dairy foods are forbidden. Dessert is part-skim ricotta cheese mixed with cocoa powder or almond extract. The closest thing to starch is "Surprise South Beach Mashed `Potatoes,' " otherwise known as puréed cauliflower.

The goal is to stabilize the blood sugar, and with it, the appetite. The book promises weight loss of up to 13 pounds in the first two weeks, which some dietitians see as a red flag.

"Any time you're promised a weight loss of over a pound a week, which is the safe recommended amount, it's time to say, `What's going on here?' " said Dawn Jackson, a dietitian at Northwestern Memorial Wellness Institute in Chicago, who reviewed the diet for the American Dietetic Association.

Yet Ms. Jackson said she liked Phases 2 and 3. In those, fiber-rich carbohydrates and unsaturated fats are gradually reintroduced. Participants are supposed to stay in Phase 2 until they reach their desired weights, then move on to Phase 3 indefinitely. But it's back to Phase 1 if they regain pounds, a step Ms. Jackson warned verged on the unhealthy.

"If you don't read it for Phase 1 and just look at the healthy menu plans in Phases 2 and 3, it's a good book for that," she said. "It's definitely healthier than Atkins, but at the end of the day, if you are losing weight on this diet it's because you're eating fewer calories than you did before."

Dr. Agatston agrees, but says people consume fewer calories because his diet has banished their cravings by stabilizing blood chemistry.

"The measure of whether the diet is working is, Are you getting cravings in the late afternoon and in the evenings?" he said. "People who do really well lose 40 pounds and perhaps gain back 5 to 10, but their blood chemistries continue to do well and they don't get the cravings."

There is no scientific data on the South Beach diet except for a study that Dr. Agatston conducted with some of his own patients, but the study did not follow them long term.

There are many converts from Atkins based on the postings on Internet message boards, some saying South Beach offers more variety.

The Atkins diet puts people into ketosis, a condition in which the body converts stores of fat into energy because it has been deprived of sufficient carbohydrates. While ketosis is not dangerous for healthy people, Dr. Agatston said, he did not want his diet to induce it because the patients he designed it for had hypertension.

Dr. Bonnie Brehm, an assistant professor at the University of Cincinnati who has studied low-carbohydrate diets, said both Atkins and South Beach dieters should be monitored long term for the effects on kidney function, since high-protein diets make the kidneys work harder. High protein intake can also strip the body of calcium, Dr. Brehm said.

Despite their precautions, Dr. Brehm and other experts favor diets rich in high-fiber carbohydrates and unsaturated fats. Dr. Agatston is riding out the trend, finishing "The South Beach Diet Cookbook," due out in April, and a guide to good fats and carbohydrates. "The South Beach Diet," which had an initial run of 55,000 copies, has 4 million copies in print in less than 6 months, and nearly 100,000 people have subscribed to the diet's Web site. South Beach residents seem to have embraced it; the local bookshop cannot keep it in stock, and stores run out of its recommended foods — like Laughing Cow cheese.

And while the book has stayed on the New York Times best-seller list for 25 weeks, a newcomer has knocked it out of the No. 1 spot in the "advice, how-to and miscellaneous" category: "The Ultimate Weight Solution" by Dr. Phil McGraw. Dr. McGraw asserts that people overeat for emotional reasons, a concept that Dr. Agatston sniffs at.

"I don't buy that the cause of obesity in this country is stress," he said. "The least stressful decade in this country was the 90's, and that's when this country got fat."

But Ms. Jackson, the Chicago dietitian, said Dr. McGraw's focus on changing attitudes toward food and toward exercising more made good sense.

"The idea of `Don't look to a diet book to fix everything but make small changes to what you're already doing' is one I'd like to see more of," she said.
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Oct-07-03, 19:22
cc48510 cc48510 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,018
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 320/220/195 Male 6'0"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: Pensacola, FL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfreddy
But while the Atkins diet allows just about any fatty food that is not also starchy, Dr. Agatston advocates mostly unsaturated fats, like those in olive oil, nuts and oily fish like salmon. Butter is nowhere in the South Beach diet meal plans, nor is bacon or anything fried. The South Beach diet also differs from Atkins in that it allows carbohydrates — though only those high in fiber, like multigrain bread and wild rice.


Read the book...Atkins suggests against eating Bacon [due to Nitrites] and Fried Foods [due to high temperatures.] Atkins allows Carbs, but the nutrient-dense and truly high fiber [No Whole Grain is high in fiber] Vegetables. Vegetables are commonly 50-75% Fiber...At best, Whole Grains weigh in with a paltry 10%. Many are <10% Fiber. Also, unlike Whole Wheat bread which is missing several vitamins and minerals, and has no more than 5% of anything other than Sodium...Some vegetables have close to 100% of some Vitamins. Even nutrient-deficient, low-fiber Whole Wheat is allowed in moderation in later stages of Atkins.

Quote:
Carrots are shunned, for example, because the body absorbs their sugars rapidly. But Dr. Marion Nestle, chairwoman of the department of nutrition and food studies at New York University, said it would take over a pound of carrots to spike the blood sugar as high as the index warns.


Hence the reason for Glycemic Load. Melons and Carrots both have high GIs, but low GLs and should not be shunned entirely. In fact raw carrots are believed to have a much lower GI...than the high one attributed to cooked carrots. Both Cooked Carrots and Watermelon have GLs of around 4. That is alot better than a slice of Whole Wheat Bread which typically runs 7-9.

Quote:
"If this approach says: `Guess what. We think saturated fat is a bad idea,' it will get a greater mass acceptance," said Dr. Foster of the weight and eating disorders program at the University of Pennsylvania.


I think that pretty much summarizes the problem. Dieticians have this deep seeded hatred of Saturated Fat...So much so that they did not want to tell people to eat as little TFAs as possible, because they were afriad it would cause them to eat SFAs instead. The simple fact is only 2 Saturated Fats (Myristic and Palmitic) are known to significantly raise LDL as compared to HDL...and in at least one of those cases (Myristic,) they found that the LDL created was the non-damaging [possibly beneficial] variety. Stearic (Found in Beef and Chocolate) and Lauric Acid (Found in Coconut Oil)...which are the other 2 primary Saturated Fats are both believed to lower Cholesterol. Most meats have a significant amount (sometimes more than 50% of the total fat) of Oleic Acid [the same Cholesterol busting MFA found in Olive Oil.] Beef also contains a small amount of Omega-3s.

Beef Fat --

0.017g Capric Acid (Has little to no effect on Cholesterol)
0.017g Lauric Acid (Lowers Cholesterol)
0.281g Myristic Acid (Raises Light Fluffy [Beneficial] LDL)
2.414g Palmitic Acid (Raises LDL -- Not Sure of Type)
1.139g Stearic Acid (Lowers Cholesterol)
0.374g Palmitoleic Acid (???)
3.970g Oleic Acid (Lowers Cholesterol)
0.017g Gadoleic Acid (???)
1.071g Linoleic Acid (Primary Omega-6: Lowers Cholesterol)
0.196g Linolenic Acid (Primary Omega-3: Lowers Cholesterol/TGs)
0.178g Arachidonic Acid (???)

0.017g -- No Effect
0.569g -- Unkown
6.393g -- Cholesterol Lowering Fats
2.695g -- Cholesterol Raising Fats

In beef, cholesterol busting fats outnumber cholesterol raising fats by 2 to 1. Beef also contains the two primary Omega Fats (Linoleic and Linolenic Acid.) Plus, to round it all off the Linoleic Acid in beef is primarily Conjugated Linoleic Acid, which is known to help prevent Cancer. The variety of Linoleic Acid in plants [like nutritionists are pushing] is believed to CAUSE cancer and supress the immune system in large amounts. That's why I won't eat Sunflower Seeds except on occassion...They're almost pure LA.

Quote:
The goal is to stabilize the blood sugar, and with it, the appetite. The book promises weight loss of up to 13 pounds in the first two weeks, which some dietitians see as a red flag.

"Any time you're promised a weight loss of over a pound a week, which is the safe recommended amount, it's time to say, `What's going on here?' " said Dawn Jackson, a dietitian at Northwestern Memorial Wellness Institute in Chicago, who reviewed the diet for the American Dietetic Association.


Anyone know why 1 pound is generally accepted as safe ??? Here's some of the reasons:

1) Losing 1 pound a week requires a 500 Calorie deficit [assuming a Low-Cal diet]. If you are like me [slow metabolism] and most overweight folks...that means you have to cut your calories to 1500/day. To lose more than that, you'd need to reduce your Caloric intake to a level that is generally regarded as too low.

2) It is believed that on a Low-Calorie diet, all you can lose fat-wise without going too low Calorically is about 1 pound/week. If you lose any more than that and aren't below 1,500 Calories...it is likely Lean Muscle you're losing.

As any LCer can tell you, an LC diet is neither dangerously low in calories, and it is muscle sparing. That means neither of those reasons for not losing more than 1 pound/week apply to LC Diets.

Quote:
"If you don't read it for Phase 1 and just look at the healthy menu plans in Phases 2 and 3, it's a good book for that," she said. "It's definitely healthier than Atkins, but at the end of the day, if you are losing weight on this diet it's because you're eating fewer calories than you did before."


With SBD that may be true. But, on Atkins it is not...While I do eat less Calories now than I did immediately Pre-Atkins...it is because I lost weight and don't need as many. When I first started Atkins I was eating 2-3K Calories/day...a level which I could not have lost at doing LF/HC. In fact, in my experience...I lost painfully slow at 1,500 Calories [on a LF Diet] and not at all at 2,000 Calories. Despite that, since going on Atkins...I have lost weight at 2,000 Calories...a level which I could not lose at on a LF Diet. The reason is simple...Each gram of Fat requires 4 Calories be expended to break it down. Eating a diet of 50-75% Fat vs. 10-30% Fat can increase your Metabolism as much as several hundred Calories/day. This is what Atkins calls the Metabolic Advantage.

Quote:
There are many converts from Atkins based on the postings on Internet message boards, some saying South Beach offers more variety.


More variety ??? What are they smoking ??? On SBD you have to give up Fatty Meats, Butter, Real Cheese, and so forth...and all you get in return is a small amount of Whole Wheat Bread and Fruit. Basically, you are trading all the tasty foods [for life] to have a small amount of Whole Grains/Fruit a few months earlier than it would be allowed on Atkins. That's not a tradeoff I would make.

Quote:
The Atkins diet puts people into ketosis, a condition in which the body converts stores of fat into energy because it has been deprived of sufficient carbohydrates. While ketosis is not dangerous for healthy people, Dr. Agatston said, he did not want his diet to induce it because the patients he designed it for had hypertension.


Ketosis = Fat Burning. Nothing unsafe about it. As for Hypertension...I was Hypertensive before going on Atkins (140+/???...I believe at one time it may have been even higher.) Now my Blood Pressure is 110-120/70. My resting heart rate is also down...But, that's probably due to being able to exericse once again...Something I couldn't do when I weighed 320+.

Quote:
Dr. Bonnie Brehm, an assistant professor at the University of Cincinnati who has studied low-carbohydrate diets, said both Atkins and South Beach dieters should be monitored long term for the effects on kidney function, since high-protein diets make the kidneys work harder. High protein intake can also strip the body of calcium, Dr. Brehm said.


I had my Kidneys and Electrolytes tested at the same time I had my Lipids tested [August]...Kidneys were fine and all my Calcium [as well as all my other Electrolytes] were all well within the normal range.

Quote:
Despite their precautions, Dr. Brehm and other experts favor diets rich in high-fiber carbohydrates and unsaturated fats.


I will say it once again, Whole Grains are a pathetic source of Fiber. Most Lower-Carb fruits have more Fiber than a slice of 100% WW [and most WW Bread isn't 100%]...and most Green Veggies have 5-8x the amount of Fiber than Whole Wheat does. As for unsaturated fats...most meats are 50-60% Unsaturated, with most of that from Oleic Acid. Fish can be almost entirely Unsaturated. Catfish and some others are primarily Monounsaturated. Some cold water fish are high in Omega-3s. Chicken Skin is very high in Unsaturated Fats, especially Oleic Acid.
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, Oct-08-03, 09:04
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
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Posts: 26,176
 
Plan: Primal/P:E
Stats: 171/145/145 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Default

...and don't forget this gem:

>>"she, a bread lover, has come to accept whole-wheat pita instead."

Yeah. Pitas are not bread, since they have this Middle Eastern/Eastern European mystique.
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Oct-08-03, 18:15
DebPenny's Avatar
DebPenny DebPenny is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,514
 
Plan: TSP/PPLP/low-cal/My own
Stats: 250/209/150 Female 63.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 41%
Location: Sacramento, CA
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First off, I haven't read Atkns, but this one is new to me. I hadn't heard it around the forum:

MrFreddy Wrote:
Quote:
The reason is simple...Each gram of Fat requires 4 Calories be expended to break it down. Eating a diet of 50-75% Fat vs. 10-30% Fat can increase your Metabolism as much as several hundred Calories/day.


That probably explains that when I decided to cut my calories -- because I was eating at or slightly above what I need metabolically (too much protein) -- by cutting both fat and protein, I stayed the same weight. But now that I have added back in some of the fat, it looks like I may be on the downward path -- weightwise.
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Oct-09-03, 05:26
DayStar's Avatar
DayStar DayStar is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 129
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 327/271/200 Male 5' 10"
BF:Less Than Before!
Progress: 44%
Location: In the web
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Thanx for the rundown, CC

And congrats on the approaching TRIPLE DIGIT accomplishment.

The financial world may have it's 'six figure' income benchmark

... but we have something better..... the 'three figure' weight loss !!!
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Oct-09-03, 05:28
DayStar's Avatar
DayStar DayStar is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 129
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 327/271/200 Male 5' 10"
BF:Less Than Before!
Progress: 44%
Location: In the web
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Deb: Please read the book! So many people say they are on "Atkins" when they don't have a clue.....

Reading the book makes all the difference between success and failure.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Oct-09-03, 06:14
Angeline's Avatar
Angeline Angeline is offline
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Posts: 3,423
 
Plan: Atkins (loosely)
Stats: -/-/- Female 60
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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Deb isn't doing Atkins
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Oct-09-03, 17:52
DebPenny's Avatar
DebPenny DebPenny is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,514
 
Plan: TSP/PPLP/low-cal/My own
Stats: 250/209/150 Female 63.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 41%
Location: Sacramento, CA
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Thanks, Angeline. You're right, I'm not doing Atkins. And I've read plenty of books and articles (including both Protein Power books, both TSP books, Dana Carpender's book, etc.) , just not Atkins.

So for those of you who have read Atkins, is that information about it's taking 4 calories to process a gram of fat in there? Like I said, I haven't heard it quoted on the forum before and I'm not ready to read the book as I'm in the middle of re-reading PPLP.
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Oct-09-03, 18:07
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
So for those of you who have read Atkins, is that information about it's taking 4 calories to process a gram of fat in there?


Nope (at least not that I can find!).
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Oct-09-03, 18:34
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
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Posts: 26,176
 
Plan: Primal/P:E
Stats: 171/145/145 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
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I wonder if they meant that 4 or 5 calories per gram of fat are wasted when carbs are low enough. See Doreen's explanation.

Last edited by Kristine : Thu, Oct-09-03 at 18:39.
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Oct-09-03, 21:08
DebPenny's Avatar
DebPenny DebPenny is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,514
 
Plan: TSP/PPLP/low-cal/My own
Stats: 250/209/150 Female 63.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 41%
Location: Sacramento, CA
Default

Thanks, Kristine. That helps a lot. And helps me in my quest to determine why I have been stalled for a year. And why I might finally be seeing some movement. I haven't been eating much more than 80 grams, usually less, of carbs a day. But I have been eating lots and lots of protein -- way too much.

So about a month ago, I cut back on both fats and protein but didn't see any movement. A week ago, I added back the fat and then some and I've dropped two pounds. So we'll see how it goes from here.
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Oct-09-03, 21:10
cc48510 cc48510 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,018
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 320/220/195 Male 6'0"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: Pensacola, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristine
I wonder if they meant that 4 or 5 calories per gram of fat are wasted when carbs are low enough. See Doreen's explanation.


Its not in DANDR...I read it in one of the other books. Not sure which, though. The statement was that when you break fat down into Ketones, each gram of fat [broken down] requires the expenditure of 4 kcal. As long as you use the fat for energy [I.E. Not in a caloric excess with lots of carbs] the body should expend 4 kcal for each gram of fat you eat. When you are LCing, your body will always burn fat for energy...so this will always be true on a LC Diet. On a LF Diet, your body will only burn fat once all carbs have been expended. So, this may not hold true for folks eating lots of carbs and too many calories. I'm not familiar with how the body handles storing excess dietary fat [I.E. if it is broken down and converted to body fat or stored as it is.]
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