Hi there,

I am getting right confused here! I've been reading bits about the different LC diets and they all seem to work in their way. Why do they all work when they have differing allowances of Carbs? I've ordered some books from my library and will read in more detail, but I wondered if anyone had some simple explanations.

Also, for me I seem to be subconsciously scared to increase my carb levels much above Induction for fear of gaining or not loosing. I'm loosing about 1lb a week although sometimes it seems I go for longer than a week without loosing a lb. As I increase my carbs should I look to decrease fat or cals


What have other people found in terms of how high their carb levels can go before they stop loosing, I'd hate to think that not much more that 20 30 had to be it for life whereas other LC diets allow more to loose on, see why I'm confused. I just need a very simple explanation to work it all out.

I lost over 8 lb is the first 10 days on Induction but was probably eating more carbs than now in the way of salads etc now I know how much I'm eating as I'm checking Fitday every hour!! I think it's becoming obsessive, I was better off guessing

I've been reading postings here from people saying they haven't lost weight in ages and they have been doing the Atkins diet for absolutely ages, what's going on why? Suggestions of 'becoming' insulin resistant being on this diet, I'd be scared of this happening to me, any comments? I've only been on it since the beginning of February so early days, but I do feel the need for more veggies and fruit, the latter however, is not allowed much on Atkins, hence the quest into other LC diets which do, again help

Anyway hope this all makes sense maybe I am too impatient to loose.

Hope someone can help, my eyes are getting boggly with reading so much info all day, I need to rest from this I think and just eat LC sensibly! Whadya think?

HELP going mad with all this info.

Banana bye

I'm not sure I can be any help. My best guess is that everybody reacts differently to different carb levels. Some simply can't lose without severely restricting, while others are blessed with a metabolism that allows them to lose while eating 70 or 80 g a day. We are all trying to find the best balance.

I think you CAN become obsessed with not eating carbs. I know I felt guilty eating half an apple with my breakfast the other day. Ridiculous!

I also think that if you look at this as a life-long thing, then it's easier to allow yourself the occasional lapse. I know I couldn't bear the thought of not being able to have fresh cherries or new corn EVER again. That's simply not gooing to happen. I will eat it -- I just won't eat TONS of it!

I'm trying to think long-term. As in: most of the time I'm going to follow the straight and narrow, but every now and then I'm going to have Yorkshire Pudding with my roast beef and I'm not going to beat myself up over it!

Hope this helps a little!

Joanna

Good question,

All the low carb plans agree on several things:

Excess Carbohydrate, particularly simple ,refined carbohydrate is the fundamental cause of obesity.

Carbohydrate causes us to be hungry

Carbohydrates consumed are converted into glucose (sugar)

Carbohydrate stimulates insulin, insulin creates body fat

All plans agree that to break this cycle we must reduce our carbohydrate intake.


The problem is that the extent to which the above is a problem is different for each and every one of us. Therefore the amount of carbs that we should eat and be at equilibrium is different.

Most experts take no chances and know from their experience that if on induction you reduce to 20 -30 carbs per day they can be pretty sure that it is enough to break the cycle. If some plans are higher then sure they will work for most, but maybe not all.

After that it is all about finding the balance point for you where you will not lose or not gain. Then keep under the bar.

Some plans accent ketosis, some pay more attention to protein, some exercise. Most of this is a lifestyle choice and finding the regime that you can live with permanently.

So I don't really know what are the right carbs for you. Some people stay around 30-40 all the time. Some edge upwards to dizzy heights of 60-70. But the higher you go the more likely that you will reverse all the good you have done and will have to go right back to 20-30 and start again.

Rustpot,

That's such a fabulous quote! I love it! Isn't Shakespeare fantastic.

Joanna

Good question. I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that your body adapts to whatever you give it.

Here's a current version of my theory: Say you start off with 35 gms. of carb and lose. Over time your body adapts; you stop losing. Then you go to 25 gms carb and lose. But again your body adapts and you stop losing. So you start in on the exercise, say 20 minutes of medium intensity cardio and lose again. Your body adapts to this too. You add more exercise .... You get the idea.

I'm starting to disbelieve in the CCL (critical carb level at which you can reliably count on losing). I think it is constantly changing with the circumstances your body is presented with. I think you have to constantly be one step ahead of that little thermostat, constantly changing things around and confusing it.

Think about this: they say Eskimos, Aborigines, and Neanderthals all originally had a diet with little or no carb content. But these people couldn't have lived their entire lives in ketosis! Their bodies must have adapted to the diet to prevent their wasting away.

Of course, if you've got a ton to lose like me, you can't just keep going to increasingly severe levels. I think it's going to have to be more complex than that. Like maybe going back through a low-fat phase? I don't know. Maybe a season of low-glycemic carbs? I just don't know.

I do know that worked for me in the first month stopped working a few months later. I figured out the offending foods, eliminated them and began to lose again. What worked then is not working now. In my experience, you can't count on the fact that low-carb bars and bacon weren't a problem for you before and so shouldn't be a problem now. Survival mechanisms kick in and suddenly your body learns to use bacon and low-carb bars in a way it didn't before.

Human bodies just seem to be too well designed and they "learn" to deal with the new conditions we give them. My current advice is that you should NOT start off severe, as newbies are so often inclined to do. I think it only worsens the problem later. If I could do it over, I'd skip Atkins induction and start with a liberal plan like the Zone or Schwarzbein. Then there's more room to move down to Protein Power levels and finally to Atkins when necessary.

Most importantly, include exercise. I think you'll have to change it around constantly so that it is always a challenge, which is a pain. As soon as it becomes comfortable I think it's no longer effective.

Allison

Hi Banana,

I started low-carbohydrate last August. (I eat about 20 grams a day six days out of seven.) I have had a consistent weight loss during this time except for a short period of no loss not long after I intensified and honed my exercise. I did, tho, see a much firmer, toned body develop during this time and that was reward enough.

I am sitting at 127-128 lbs but everyone does agree the last few are the toughest to lose. (I am considering adjusting my goal weight to 120 lbs to 'trick' my body into thinking it has further to go. I don't think the bod will buy that ploy, mind you!!)

I have accepted that as I do not follow any strict plan, I would always take a little longer to get to my goal weight. That has never worried me so much.

I look at it this way: The longer it takes to get to goal, the deeper my new eating habits will be ingrained. Time seems slow but on the other calendar, it can also work on your side.

Patience is a word often used here. Stick with it, don't over-analyse, follow your plan and wait a week before getting back onto the scales or dragging out the tape measure.

Hey guys,

Thanks all of you for taking the time to reply and put down your thoughts and opinions, they were all really brill

Babs - what do you do on the 7th day, 'Sin' or what? Do you come out of ketosis by drastically increasing your carbs, your body must be well confused, maybe that' s what does it with the weight loss!. Let me know your plan. I've only really got between 7 - 14 lbs left to go, I think going down to 126lb probably is not realistic for me as I haven't been that since a teenager (long time ago ) so if I say 7 - 9 lbs left, that isn't really an awful lot when you take this as a WOE for life is it. PATIENCE is a REALLY good word to remember! Good advice which I already sort of know but wanted to overlook

Allisonm - you know I could really buy into your theory it does sound feasible, after all that's what happens to your body with calorie intake doesn't it, so maybe it applies to carbs.

Anybody out there who has more details, facts, knowledge on this issue, would be really interesting.

Funny 'cause I started out probably on higher carb intake because I was using guesswork not Fitday. Now I'm hard pushed to make it to 20, but I know that I need to start increasing them otherwise I will never know what my level is at, plus I really do miss the fruit and veggies. I've done that over the past 2 days, had loads of salads and veggies with lunch and dinner and still the carb levels are low!

God designed us very well I think, we cannot fool our bodies, like you suggest we probably adjust sooner or later, otherwise the Eskimos would have shrivelled away to nothing! I'll probably now move towards further still increasing my carbs through low glycaemic fruit and veg and see what happens. (Does that mean I've switched plans??????)

Exercise is a bit of a bummer with me. I've got three small kid still at home to chase around, at night when they are in bed, I like to sit down with my lovely hubby and either read or now get on line and research some more about LC, so I don't get out to actually 'exercise'. However, I'd say lifting my 18mth old constantly, (and he is no small boy!!) could constitute weight lifting!!!!! Come nicer weather there will be more walking as well.

Rustpot - I've noticed browsing through this forum that you come up with some brill answers, how do you do it? You've clued yourself up on all of this LC stuff haven't you, it shows Thanks cause it really helps to get the info from somebody who is actually following the plan not just writing about it.

Joanne - this thing about lapsing, won't this confuse your body if you keep doing that? Also won't a sudden intake of carbs bring in a surge of insulin which will take days to reverse again. What I'd like to know is how many carbs at one go would bring about this switch back to glucose as energy rather than fat?

Another question which I haven't come across the answer to, I think! If you come out of ketosis and your body starts to use carbs as energy again, can you still loose weight gradually? (Which is what the other LC diets advocate don't they?) I can't remember what the Dr says, are you in ketosis all the time you are loosing weight and it's when you reach that CCLM that your body has kicked into glucose again?

Wow loads of questions but I sort of need to just put everything in it's right place in my head so that I can stop being so obsessive about it all and just get on with it as a WOL

Thanks guys anyway, it's a real head scratcher for me at the moment, but I know that it's the right thing following LC for all around health, it's just achieving the right levels personally, as you say.

As for my poor kids, sweets are out They get a treat once a week, or when they go to a party I let them eat what's there, (difficult not to really!) I can see that they just eat loads of carbs already in the form of bread, rice, potatoes and pasta let alone the yogurts and fromage frais they love.

Ta Ta 4 now
Banana

Dear Banana,

You've got some great questions and I'm not probably the one to give the best reply but I've read some GREAT!! stuff on this site. I suggest you search under fat and ketosis to see if you can find them. Allow me to briefly attempt to paraphrase some of the main points:

Ketosis is an indication that your body is burning fat for fuel! This could be your own fat reserves or dietary fat... which is why the eskimos are still around The metabolic advantage of burning fat for fuel are 1. appetite suppression 2. burning fat does not necessarily release all the calories that is possible. When the body burns fat it can stop at the fatty acid level and use these for cellular repair and such or simple discard them in your urine... hence the strong suggestion of Boatloads of water. You would prefer the body to use what it needs and discard the rest as unused calories. Hence the "metabolic advantage" of eating lets say 500 cals of fat but only processing 250.

You certainly can eat more carbs and lose weight but if you eat to the point where the body now can burn carbs (it's first choice) then the metabolic advantage of burning fat is lost and you run the risk of if you're eating too much then dietary fat can be stored as body fat. Therefore as you increase your carbs the more critical it is to look at your caloric intake, exercise level, and metabolic level.

I like the freedom of not counting calories and if I'm hungry I eat something so I stay pretty close to induction. However, the point about the body adapting is genuine. Evidently when you decrease your source of fuel (whatever it may be) to get your body to burn reserves it does sense that "lean times" are here and it depresses you metabolism. That's why exercise is critical. To try to keep your metabolism up. And like someone said above, the body is highly adaptable. If you swim everyday the same amount, your muscles will "learn" how to efficient and you will burn less cals than when you first started. Atkins warns about using this diet as a quick fix and how it could stop working for you (body adaptation again) search for that thread under the "wrong way to do atkins.


Sooo... With all that Here's my finally take. If you're feeling deprived by all means try to up your carbs a bit. And if I may suggest spacing them out as much as possible. If you're going to try 40 don't pile them on in one meal. Make sure you're eating enough protein and enough fat. Remember fat has a metabolic edge to LC'ers by tricking the body into thinking that it's getting more calories than it actually processes and suppresses appetite.
I'm trying not to worry about maintance. I'll worry when I get there and besides when I'm really slim I know that I feel like exercising a lot more (I tend to live a more active lifestyle) so that will help. And lastly, I've personally decided that I just don't want to fight my weight any longer. I'm _tired_ of yo-yoing and for the first time, I'm willing to accept limitations on my food in order to stay in check.

Good Luck and search this site. It's a tremendous resource!

Hi, Banana. I just had to put in my two cents. I am on the Schwarzbein program and we have two kinds of veges: non-starchy and starcy. And technically we don't count the non-starchy veges.

Non-starchy veges include some of my favorites: cabbage, broccoli, zucchini, tomatoes, raw carrots, celery, onions, garlic, etc.

These veges should be a part of you diet IMHO. My lunch is typically a grilled chicken breast with 3 roma tomatoes, a 4" piece of English cucumber and oil and vinegar salad dressing. I love it.

I'm not reducing fast, but it's coming off. And I am firming up and shrinking faster.

However, the other thing I have read is that one thing that can help get a person off a plateau is to up their fat intake. This helps convince the body that it can burn fat for energy.

;-Deb

allison, I think the body is quite good at adapting--especially for those of us (hi, sister! ) who have dieted so often it really knows the drill. Survival was dependent for so many generations upon our ability to hang onto fat, so the advent of the grocery story and modern easy survival (for those of us in the developed world) is simply not figured into that genetic structure.

But here's a slightly contrary thought--you could also try raising your carbs and might find success. Do that with all veggies and berries, of course (don't want to trigger the darned cravings again). Having raised my level to 50 g/day (38 ECCs), I'm certainly not gaining, and might even be losing size a tad faster. I'd go even higher in carbs, but I have no idea how to stuff another cup of vegetables in me! Jeepers, 50 g. is whole lot of veggies--3 cups of spinach salad and a cup of cooked this and two cups of cooked that and some celery. (blurf--I'm full just thinking about it)

Atkins deals with your theory, in a sense, in his recommendation of a "reversal" diet. High carbs/low fat for three days may restart (he says) the whole process. The danger of that, of course, is that three days of Snackwells could easily become three months of Snackwells. But one or the other may be worth a try, eh? Anyway, allison, hugs your way--I know how frustrated you are with slow loss. Try to think not, poor me, a turtle...but mutant ninja turtle! we are strong, baby!

oh, and one more technical detail allison: a "ton" is 2000. you've a bit less than that to lose!

This is it, thanks Fleadogs (great name by the way, how did you come by that?)

I think this has helped tremendously, makes complete sense to me, any disagreements from anyone out there? I will certainly be looking at my overall eating as I increase my carbs, but I'd rather get more vits and bits from my veggies and berries than eat more fat, (although I love my cream and olive oil etc, one of the reasons I was first attracted to this WOE).

I have scoured this site for loads of information and have read the bits about fat and Ketosis, it was just this specific thing about the level of carbs and loss vs comsumption of fat and calories that was still unclear, but I think you've probably hit the nail on the head for me

I agree with you Razzle, it's hard to cram in that amount of carbs each day just from veggies. What about low carb bread, I found a brill recipe which is made from Flaxmeal, Oatmeal, gluten powder, almond flour and works out about 2.5g per slice or less than 2g if you halve the recipe and put it into a smaller tin and get more slices out of the loaf. That would help increase the daily carbs. Do you think this type of carb would be a problem and cause any slow down or not? I suppose I just have to work it out for myself.

Razzle, do you have a reference from Atkins' book where he talks about this 'reversal' diet, I can't remember reading about it in his book DANDR? and I'd like to see exactly what he says. Thanks

DebPenny, I always tried not to have too many tomatoes as they seem to be quite high carbs, and carrots, but you say they and raw carrots are OK. I think I'm going to gen up on this list and widen my scope of veggies slowly, cause I love them all too! Also if you are on Schwarzbein you aren't in ketosis are you? So why would your body burn fat for energy? Where's that fine balance when your body switches energy sources but still looses weight, or does this just not happen, once energy sources are switched fat loss stops? That can't be or else people doing Schwarzbein would not loose weight surely?


Banana

Banana, as far as I can tell, I'm not in ketosis and, yes, I am losing weight and it is fat, not muscle. I could not fee this strong if I were losing muscle, I've been there, I know what it feels like. And my muscles are becoming more defined as the fat around them disappears, especially in my legs which have always been muscular from my competitive swimming days.

Dr. Schwarzbein says that it is not necessary to be in ketosis to lose fat. I believe her. Also, it takes dietary fat to convince your body to burn fat. Basically, when you have lower carbs, less than you need for fuel, your body looks elsewhere and the elsewhere it looks first is fat if you are eating dietary fat. By ingesting enough dietary fat, your body becomes used to using fat for energy. When it is used to using fat for energy and it does not have enough dietary fat, it will go to your fat stores. But if you lower your fat intake too much, it will go into starvation mode.

There's a great article about it at:

http://www.low-carb.co.uk/lowcarbhighfat

What I wrote above is my understanding of it. To make this all work (I got this from another post) you do have to have low insulin levels. Two things will lower your insulin levels: 1) way too few carbs or 2) balancing the carbs you eat with foods that greatly slow down your carb absorbtion, thereby lowering the need for insulin production. The second way is what you achieve with the Schwarzbein program.

I eat about 50 to 70 grams of carbs a day and that's of starchy vegetables. Dr. S. suggests that I eat about 60 grams for my size and activity level, although as I get stronger and have more energy, my activity level is increasing. I have been counting all my carbs to see what my non-starchy veges are adding, but they don't add that much. And Dr. S. also says that if you are eating a lot of non-starchy vegetables, you don't need to eat starchy vegetables (apparently acknowledging that they do have some carbs ). I have been eating lots of fat, about 60% of my calories come from fat.

My typical weekday is; breakfast - 2 eggs, hamburger, spinach, onions and mushrooms, all cooked in at least 2 tablespoons of butter; lunch - cucumber, tomatoes, grilled chicken and avocado with lots of oil and vinegar dressing; dinner - about 8 ounces meat usually cooked with onions and other veges in butter or oil and maybe with cream or sour cream or creme fraiche to make a creamy sauce -- I am a one-pot-meal type of person. For snacks I have had cheese and veges (celery mostly) or hummus with celery and today I had a wonderful cabbage salad that I found a recipe for that includes walnuts and feta cheese. I usually have only one snack that I call my early lunch.

I eat lots. I don't let myself get too hungry (timing is sometimes an issue at work) and I feel great! That's all that matters to me. If my weight comes down, which it is doing, more's the better. I've been following the plan now for over 7 weeks. My clothes are all becoming baggy and I have lost about 18 pounds.

And of course this just shows that different methods work for different people. If I do go into an extended plateau, I will probably try upping my fat intake first. If that doesn't help, I will try something else. A lot of the time, it seems to me, that all you need is a change to get your body out of its rut.

Sorry to be such a gab... Oh, and I don't count calories except when I am inputting a new recipe and that's just because it's part of the program. That's how I know my fat intake is about 60%.

;-Deb

banana, whatever version you have, just look up "reversal diet" in the index, and it'll take you there. Save it, like an all-meat week or a three-day fat fast, for times when you're truly stalled--six or more weeks without a loss of pounds OR inches, and after you've tried everything else to budge the stall. (eliminating dairy, processed meats, bars and shakes, increasing water, increasing calories, etc.)

I started back on Atkins as of 2 weeks ago. I eat between 20-30 carbs a day. I cut out bread and potatoes for at least 5 days out of the week and the other 2 days I still monitor my carb intake. Mind you, it's only been almost 2 weeks and I already see my clothes getting bigger. (Actually I noticed that LAST weekend.) Also, today I wore a blouse that was snug before around the "jugs" and the buttons would pull slightly. I wore it today and the buttons were not screaming and there was no gap. I was amazed. This thing works even if you don't stick to it "by the book". Just be aware of what you're eating. I'm positive I will reach my goal without fail. Peace to all.

DebPenny,

Wow, that was a brill explanation and I am really relieved that one doesn't have to be constantly in Ketosis to still loose . I understand now about the carb vs fat when NOT in Ketosis. Your body uses up the carbs first that you've eaten then when it runs out it goes to the fat stores, dietary first, which isn't too efficient in the absence of high insulin, then deposits, yes? But if you eat TOO much fat AND those carbs you won't loose, and if you eat too LITTLE fat but still eat the carbs (but not totally enough carbs for total energy production) your body will think it's going into starvation mode. So balance is really essential, does make a whole lot of sense. Ketosis is like an extreme thing really isn't it? Not totally necessary ALL the time!

I'm currently around 70 - 80% fat with 5% carb, so as I increase my carbs I will probably need to decrease that!

I hope you didn't think I was doubting your methods (or rather Schwarzbein's) I'm just trying to understand it all. I actually like what Dr S has to say, I've ordered her book from the library so that I can read in more depth not just off the website. Need to find out what foods slow down carb absorption.

Your menu for the day is great, just the sort of thing I'm happy with.

Razzle - thanks found it p285-7 I hadn't got that far 'cause it's past 'premaintenance' which I'm not on yet, I was saving it to nearer the time.

Great going Golden Grl keep it up let us know how you're progressing with this way of doing it.

Bye
Banana