I think the reason this is has less to do with being obese itself, and more to do with insulin resistence. The obese have a higher tendency to be hyperinsulemic/prediabetic/poor carb metabolism than the thin, which means a much higher percentage of the obese group had these problems than the thing group. Insulin inhibits metabolic processes which leads to weight gain and trouble losing weight; and we all know they were probably feeding them tons of refined carbs in the study.

I bet if they put both groups on a low carb diet, there wouldn't be as appreciable of a losing gap between them.

Regarding that "refeed" idea. When I mentioned that I might experiment with that a bit, I didn't mean in the traditional high carb/low fat/adequate protein sense. What I'm considering is simply raising my calorie level for a few days to slightly higher than what maintainance would be for me (say around 2,000) by increasing my fat and protein intake and then drop back to my typical level of 1,300-1,500 and see what happens.
I'm toying with the idea that a refeed doesn't have to be high in carbs (and therefore a major issue for a lot of us with triggering cravings and binges) to be effective since it's not carbs per se that have an effect on Leptin levels, but rather the body fat percentage and calorie levels. If I do decide to give it a go, I'll let you know what the results are. Not very scientific since if it does result in weight loss, I wouldn't be able to conclusively say it was the refeed that was responsible, but if I were to continue that pattern of going higher cal for a few days every few weeks and it's then followed by a weight loss each time I do this and then go back to previous lower levels, it would be an interesting correlation.

Lisa, It would be interesting to see your results. But, do I understand this correctly that the quantity of leptin is based on the number of (full) fat cells? So with a refeed, the point is to add some fat to the cells so that you trick your body into thinking the famine is over. Don't you need the higher insulin level from carbs to be able to store the fat in the cells? And in order to trigger that to happen, you would have to eat more carbs than your body would use, right? Maybe I'm missing something, though. There is a lot here to understand.

True, a refeed doesn't have to be high in carbs, it just has to put fat back in the fat cells, resulting in positive energy balance to raise leptin levels.

However, since the goal of the refeed is to gain a little weight to get your body out of "starve or survive" mode, refeed food should be made up of stuff that will pack on weight... and what food is better at that than rapidly absorbed, simple to digest sugars?

I do think a glucose refeed would be the most metabolically efficient way to raise leptin levels, however the psychological ease of just doing a little above maintenence and relaxing might also help your metabolism too.

You are right in a sense; the point of a refeed is to bring the body back to a positive (weight gaining) energy balance for a few days, as this kicks back leptin production up.

This is why glucose is traditionally used in a refeed, since it most readily spikes insulin and turns to/is stored as fat. But, please realize even on low carb if you eat too many calories you will put fat back in the fat cells. Any time you eat an over abundance of calories you will gain weight; this is just as true on LC as on HC. Doing a refeed with high fat LC food might not be as efficient as doing it with simple sugar, since you will not gain as much weight (you would need to eat way way more LC food to equal the weight-gaining potential of less simple sugar) but it should raise leptin back up some.

Trust me...I'm not unrelaxed about the rate at which I'm losing. As I've said before, I'm perfectly content with it. My health is far improved and I feel good. The rate at which the pounds leave isn't as important to me as the first two. Having said all that, I do think it would be an interesting experiment to try. Being diabetic pretty much excludes doing a carb-up refeed, so why not experiment a bit with a low carb higher calorie refeed? Perhaps one doesn't actually have to gain weight to raise leptin levels so much as signal your body that "there's plenty of food to be had so you don't need to worry about a famine going on".
I realize that this is all theorizing on my part and may be full of beans (or worse), but it's more of a curiosity thing for me at this point. Nothing ventured, nothing gained (I hope!).

I agree ItsTheWooo, I'd like to see it done with the low carb diet and exercise added. These studies raise interesting points, but only add more questions. I hope to work in obesity research when I graduate.

Well, I'm trying a refeed, in my own way. I know it's not the classic refeed that is supposed to be all glucose/low fat/adequate protein. I just went completely off my low-carb WOE today, and added a fair bit of sugar, but it also included some high carb/high fat stuff too. I've detailed in in my journal if you want specifics.

I'm going back to my normal LC WOE (even a little stricter than usual) tomorrow to try to get back into ketosis as quickly as possible. I'm nervous, such a big "cheat" is a risky move for someone like me that is so susceptible to carbs but I really wanted to see if my weight loss rate would improve from this.

Send me good thoughts that I am able to stay on track tomorrow and after, I don't want this to have been the beginning of the end of my low carbing days. I'll let you all know how it works for me.

I'm already up about 3 1/2 lbs for the day! Wonder how much more I'll be up overnight?

Valerie

Turns out that when I woke up this morning, I was up almost exactly three pounds from my refeed yesterday.

So far today has been good, back to my low carb basics, very close to induction on Atkins 72. No wicked cravings, but I'm ever vigilant. I just cannot afford to have this experiment turn into my failure at low-carbing. I just am not willing to regain the 60 lbs I've lost so far.

I'll have to see what happens, how quickly this water weight comes off and if some extra comes with it this week from the refeed.

Valerie

Valerie...I hope it goes well for you. My experience with doing what you did is that the pounds gained definitely don't leave me as quickly as they came. In fact, I have to fight to get them back off again, which is why I know that I can't do a refeed in the typical fashion.
I hope this is successful for you. It seems to work for some people, but not others.

Lisa, I wish I'd known that beforehand!

Seriously though, that's okay. I approached this with a real feeling of curiosity and awareness of the risks. If the pounds don't come off as quickly, that's okay. I mean I won't like it, but I know that I do lose with low-carbing and that they will eventually come off again. I'm just testing the theory to see how it works for me. If it doesn't work for me, then that's okay, I'll know it's not an option for me in the future.

I will keep posting here though and let everyone know how it did (or didn't) work.

Valerie

Thanks Valerie--I am interested to know how it works out!

So far so good, I'm only up 1 lb from my pre-refeed weight after one day back on low-carbing. And I'm back in ketosis according to my ketostix. And I didn't go off plan yesterday.

So while it's too early to tell if this has been a successful experiment, at least it hasn't been a failure yet!

I'm curious to see where my weight ends up later this week.

Valerie

I know I'm like a dog with a bone, but I've been thinking about this whole thread off and on. I still have an issue with the statement that when you are eating lc the fat that we eat can be stored in the fat cells. I'm not a researcher, so can only point to posts from others here. Based on this post from Doreen: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...3355#post263355, it would seem to me that excess fat that we eat is eliminated. This statement in particular:

Unused free fatty acid components are also excreted. Why?? Because once fatty acids are broken down into the smaller ketone, acetone and fatty esterols .. they CANNOT be converted back into fat. That's basic Biochemistry 101. Without insulin, they cannot be forced into storage in the fat cells. So they are eliminated. This is what Atkins refers to as the "Metabolic Advantage".

Now I will concede that we are not eating 0 carbs, so we do have "some" insulin, thus some might get stored. But if insulin levels are really low, then I wouldn't expect it to store much. So, if this is valid, would it make sense to track only the calories from carbs & protein and use that to determine the right number for losing weight. Still assuming we are keeping carbs really low, of course. The more carbs you eat, then, the more calories from fat would factor back into the equation.

I guess where I'm going here is that maybe a stall could be broken by tracking calories, along with tracking insulin levels. Maybe tracking bg levels 2 hours after a meal along with the calories from carbs/proteins/fats for that meal to determine the right "pattern" of carbs/proteins/fats. I know the accepted wisdom is 70% fat, 5% carbs, and the rest in protein, but maybe that isn't right for each of us individually. Maybe for those who are prone to stalling, it should be 75% fat, or 65% fat...

I am not sure if it is correct that the body cannot turn broken down fat back into storable fat; the body is capable of changing energy substances from one state to another as needed (i.e. glucose -> fat; amino acids -> glucose -> fat; fat -> glycerol -> glucose -> fat again).

Even if it is true that once the body begins breaking fat down into fuel and for repair materials it cannot be transformed back into storageable fat, the body will only do this when it needs the fuel. If you are taking in extra amounts of calories, even extra calories from fat, the extra fat will not be broken down into ketones or fatty acids, but rather stored as fat.

I do acknoweldge it probably requires relatively more fat calorie intake for this to happen, and it is probably much harder to acomplish due to the satiating nature of fats, but it is always true that whenever you are taking in excess calories you will store the energy for later. The body was not designed to waste calories like that; hunter gatherers who ate ketogenic diets wouldn't have lived through times of famine if it were true. If you eat 200 more calories from fat than you need, it will try to hold on to some of it.