Hi everyone,
I've been thinking a lot about carbs lately (reading Good Calories, Bad Calories) and the million dollar question to me seems to be - how much is too much???

I don't necessarily believe that the body doesn't need any carbs and I know that I can no longer do induction level (20-30 grams) carbs. Right now I'm at a pretty low count, by my standards (60-70 grams/day) but I've always been a huge believer in a whole food diet as the way to go for healthy long-term eating. Since I'm a vegetarian, I'm finding myself resorting to eating more frankenfood than I'd like to replace the carbs (such as veggie burgers, veggie hot dogs, etc.) Also, I've been trying to go vegan (i.e., no dairy/eggs/meat) for a year now, but each time I end up putting in a lot of carbs (in the form of fruit, whole grains, and beans) into my diet because I can't seem to conceptualize a low carb vegan diet.

So the gist of this is that I'd like to create somehow a vegan semi low-carb plan but I can't seem to wrap my brain around how low is low carb in this kind of case. I've created some sample menus for myself that have a good balance of percentages (the 30/30/40, roughly) and most of these are about 130-140 gram carbs a day, all from whole unprocessed foods, mostly beans and fruit and a bit of grains (and some dark chocolate ). But I'm afraid to try it because it might cause me cravings.

So I guess my question to this board is (sorry to be so round-about!) for those of you who are doing a semi low-carb plan, how many carbs approximately do you find yourself consuming so that you don't have cravings? And what form do those carbs usually come?

Tam

A low-carb VEGAN diet would be more than challenging.

Wolfgang Lutz (Life without Bread), a German MD in his 90s, dedicated his medical career to low-carb nutrition. He thinks you can get the benefits of low-carb nutrition by not exceeding 5-6 bread units, or 60-72 gm total net carbs (the amount recommended for diabetics before injectable insulin, pre-WWII). I'm writing "net" because Lutz does not much care about carbs in leafy green veggies, tree nuts, cream, cheeses and so on.

But note that Dr. Lutz's main interest in low-carb nutrition was not weight loss... in that respect, quite different from Eades or Atkins. Like the Polish MD, Jan Kwasniewski, Lutz stresses organ meats and egg yolks as essential sources of needed nutrients. In other words... he believes that humans achieve their best (optimal) health on an animal-based diet.

You might want to Google "vegan" and "low carb" because I seem to recall at least one guy doing this and blogging on the subject. He did eat fish. As a vegan, you would need to rely heavily on tofu or fermented soy products... and there have been health concerns expressed about soy on this board (don't use it myself and cannot comment).

I would urge you to eat fatty fish, at least... and I understand the ethics involved in choosing vegetarianism. Have you thought about seeking out suppliers who humanely raise and slaughter their animals while avoiding hormones, antibiotics and the like?

As for carbs consumed... here's my basic plan, adapted from Barry Groves:

Ad libitum (without limit): meat, poultry, fish (if processed or cured, I count carbs listed on package) -- eggs & high-fat dairy products (counting just a few carbs for these) -- and nonstarchy veggies (don't bother to count these at all... even onions, garlic, tomatoes and avocado... only juices get counted)

Nuts and PB -- I eat daily and count the carbs.

With all the meat and dairy, there is no need for beans or whole grains -- but if I want garbanzo beans or an occasional slice of bread... then I count the carbs. More likely I will eat a bit of potato with plenty of butter or oil.

The carbs that I count are limited to 25 - 35 grams (net of fiber) daily. Sugar alcohols are strictly counted (only consumed in low carb ice cream -- won't touch those bars). But note all the uncounted carbs: unlimited veggies plus eggs plus spices & herbs and hard cheeses, etc.

Since I cannot be bothered to count these minimal impact carbs... though strict low-carbers will do so... I just estimate them at 20-30 grams daily.

So that puts my daily carb count anywhere from 45 gm net carb to maybe 65... even 70 if I go over on the counted carbs -- that's hardly exact but it works as a way of eating I can do for life. And it's in line with Lutz and Kwasniewski, the European docs whose advice I follow.

Please don't faint... but Dr. Kwasniewski abhors vegetables ("animal fodder") and his recommended menus contain no whole grains... he wants food eaten to be absorbed completely. High-fiber (whole) grains and vegetables whisk food through the digestive tract, resulting in excretion of nutrients. (Dr. K. has been roundly censured by the Polish medical establishment for giving such heretical dietary counsel.)

Sorry, Tam -- this helps not at all with the vegan aspect -- but it does give some idea of a "semi-low-carb" eating plan. Everything is relative, I guess... Barry Groves does not consider 60 grams daily to be SEMI low-carb. And neither do I -- not compared with the carb fest (300 grams) consumed by most Americans every day. To each their own.

Good luck with your plans! Keep us posted.

Oh, yeah... dark chocolate is included most days in my counts. And since I adore Cadbury's Roasted Almond Milk Chocolate -- I am wondering how long one tiny little square (2 gms net) will last if one takes itsy bitsy little nibbles rather than inhaling it (my usual way of consuming food).

Hi Andrea,
Thanks for your response. You have given me food for thought (no pun intended) .

Tam

I was browsing the recipe section of DANDR 2002 -- looking to make a crustless quiche -- and happened upon this:

Tofu Stir Fry over Baby Spinach

Firm tofu, green onions and cherry tomatoes, stir fried in oil -- seasoned with garlic, ginger and 5-spice powder -- served over raw spinach.

10 gm carbs, 3 gm fiber -- 7 net carbs

Sounds good, doesn't it? As a vegan, you will be eating lots of tofu stir fries. In fact... see the Vegetarian Low Carber forum. They have a thread titled: "Low Carb Vegan? for Dummies" and another one with "Vegan Desserts." They are discussing firm tofu and the like. Good support group.

A co-worker gave me a venison steak, frozen, from her father's last hunting trip. While I haven't the foggiest notion how to cook it -- still I was thinking how nice it will be, knowing the animal at least had a decent life before it was killed for our nourishment. Factory farming is truly horrible.