This is a curiosity question.

If a person did everything perfectly (the right amount of calories, protein, fat, carbs, water, exercise) and was eating below their CCL, would their body be in a continual state of ketosis? Or does it cycle on and off, giving things a rest in between?

This question is related to the cycle of weight loss. We lose for a while, then the body rests to catch up. Does the same thing happen with ketosis even if a person does everything perfectly?

great question, angela. Perhaps Nat or Doreen will know the answer.

For now, I can only lead you to the site Doreen gave me on fatty acid metabolism, which details the chemical processes involvedhere .

My best guess is that nothing in the body is steady state. The nature of nature is the circle/the cycle. Surely ketosis too...

I think I read something recently, although I can't remember exactly where (old age sneaking up on me, I guess), that said that the level of ketosis varies from one time of day to another and from one time of month to another (for pre-menopausal women, at least). It makes sense that it would since our bodies have many natural and normal cycles that they go through every day and month (circadian rhythm, menstrual cycles, etc...).

Here's why I was asking the question - it has to do with expectations, and setting ourselves up for disappointment.

Many people come into this way of life expecting the pounds to just melt away if they get into ketosis. The passionate pursuit of "getting purple" has become as much an obsession as the numbers on the scale for some folks. Is this realistic?

We all should know that when we follow any kind of a weight loss program, the weight will not steadily fall off. There are periods of body rest. There are periods of gain. Expecting anything else is not realistic. Expecting anything else is setting ourselves up for disappointment, and an increase in the number of posts that start out "help, I'm gaining" or "help, I'm not losing" or "help, I'm not purple" and follow with "I'm so depressed"

So , my thinking is, if ketosis is NOT a steady state even under the best of circumstances, then the obsession to get pink or lavendar or purple is nothing but an exercise in frustration. If we naturally fluctuate in and out of ketosis, even under perfect conditions, then using the goal of being in ketosis as a measure of success or failure is about as realistic as peeing on the scale and expecting the numbers to turn purple. The sticks certainly aren't anything to fixate on.

If that concept holds true, then it follows that people need to understand that their bodies are complicated "machines". We would like to think we take control of our bodies by following this WOL. We are only setting ourselves up for disappointment by expecting that we actually ARE in control.

I strongly believe that a more reasonable expectation is that the best we can do is gently nudge our body in the right direction. Our body will eventually react in a positive manner, but in it's own time, in it's own way, when it is ready, and NOT because we want it to. None of us does this perfectly, no matter how hard we try. So none of us should expect perfect results.

Any thoughts?

LOL! I had a sneaking suspicion that there was something more to your question Angela!

I completely share your sentiments. Not only are our bodies complicated machines, our minds are complicated hard drives.

Using myself as an example I'll explain why I think it happens.

Shortly after starting low-carbing, I felt an enormous sense of being in control. The sense came from losing fat just by eliminating the carb-age I was eating. So of course I thought it would be a steady ride to thin. With the way I was going, I should have reached my goal in 2000.

I hadn't even heard of a ketostick until I read Atkins. I do use them occasionally for a laugh. Look Ma, ketosis with no fat loss!

Well, I didn't reach my goal in 2000 and had to start examining why. I suppose I should say I chose to examine why. It was an interesting archeological dig and I found all sorts of interesting things like fear, food addiction and how I was fed as a child. It's been rewarding and although it was the last thing I wanted to do at the time, I don't regret opening that door at all.

So I think it's the sense of finally being in control, or "wow it's working!" that sets people up for dissapointment. It was a complicated procedure - both in mind, body and spirit - that contributed to the manufacture of fat. Wouldn't it be likely then that the procedure for ridding oneself of it would be equally complicated? What makes fat people fat? A very long and personal list of "stuff".

I know it's a different experince for everyone, but once you've made up your mind to change, just keep going and don't look back! I think willingness to change and patience with yourself is the key.

Karen

Peeing on the scale and expecting the numbers to turn purple...Angela...you're a hoot! I agree with you on the ketostix. I think many people don't understand that darker is not necessarily better when it comes to the ketostix. All that really indicates is that you are probably dehydrated, not deeper in ketosis. Personally, I don't bother with the sticks at all. As long as the scale is moving downward and my blood sugars stay controlled, I know I'm on track. Let's face it...we have become a society of instant gratification and very "control focused". Some seem to think that they can force their bodies to lose at the rate at which THEY deem quick enough and wind up frustrated and depressed when it doesn't happen according to their pre-determined schedule. Goals are good. The speed at which we achieve them is often more out of our control than what we would like to admit or accept. I've come to accept that as long as I provide the right environment (eating properly and excercising), my body will let go of the fat at it's own rate and I can't force it to conform to my will without doing damage. This is for a lifetime, so I'm no longer concerned with how fast the weight comes off. I'm just happy that it is!

what smart women!

Seems to me that the ideal goals to have about this WOE are 1) behavioral and 2) health.

If you're doing the behavior and feeling better (or getting better blood sugar/lipids numbers), then you've suceeded. You're a success story, now. Your body will decide how, where, and when to shed the fat.

We're all valuable, wonderful people no matter our weight or clothing size. And not every woman can be 130 pound or a size 5--and that's okay too. There are wiser forces in the universe than the fashion industry.

And we should have many more goals and interests than our food and the scale, too. As long as we're meeting some goals, making progress in some area of our lives, we should feel good about ourselves, eh?

More fun facts about ketones and ketosis.

1. Ketone production is NOT exclusive to a low-carb diet. Everybody is producing some ketones at some point or another in a 24 hr. period ... usually overnight or when we've gone 8 to 10 hrs without eating. Or eaten a fatty meal. Or consumed alcohol. The only thing "special" about low-carbing and ketogenic diets is that ketones become the main source of fuel for the body due to the decreased supply of carbohydrates. Ketone production is then increased to meet the demand. Often but not always, there are sufficient ketones produced to "spill over" into the urine and thus can be detected with the urine test strips.

2. There are 3 different types of ketone bodies produced by the liver:

• acetoacetate -- this is the "first-line" ketone produced when fatty acids are broken down in the liver. It can be used as fuel as is, but generally it's further broken down into ...
  
• ß-hydroxybutyrate ... This is the ketone preferred by most body tissues as fuel when there's no glucose around, in particular the brain, heart and skeletal muscle. It's not that glucose is a preferred fuel, it's just a matter of plentiful supply when eating a high-carb diet.
  
• acetone ... this ketone isn't readily used as fuel by the body .. it tends to be excreted, mainly via the lungs. This is the ketone that lends the "chemical note" to ketosis-breath. Or morning breath in non-lowcarbers.

3. Only one type of ketone is measurable with the urine test strips; the others can only be detected by a blood sample. Acetoacetate is the one ketone the test strips are chemically sensitive to. If your liver has further processed this ketone body into acetone and ß-hydroxybutyrate, and/or if acetoacetate has been used as is for fuel, then the urine sticks will not pick this up. You'll get a false negative reading.

4. The sticks are NOT an infallible tool of proof that the low-carb diet is or isn't working. They have their usefulness but only to point .. and are subject to all kind of variables. At best they're a guide only, and should not be used as the measure of success.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's so unfortunate that Purple Pee Obsession can make or break a person's faith in low-carb. Even when all other signs are there .. looser clothes, the appetite suppression, lessened cravings, improved energy levels .. the dragon-breath ... People will weep in frustration, or panic that they're doing things "wrong". So they desperately cut back to ZERO carbs or head straight to Stillman or a fat fast .. just because the sticks won't change colour.

my 2.5¢

Doreen

Hey there!
Can I just say that although I have just started this WOL, I feel well-armed with a plethera of knowledge. And that's thanks mainly to this site and those who flesh it out. And by the way, I agree--Doreen IS pretty unbelievable. A chieftan princess in another lifetime, maybe??
always laughingxoLilShug

In the Atkins book, he says that the ketostix aren't all that accurate. At the Atkins Center Clinic in NYC, they use a machine to measure ketones in the breath (you breathe into a mask and the machine measures that.) So even pale pink IS ketosis. And if you're losing without ketosis, who cares how pink those stix are.

This is my second time around to lose 100 pounds using a low carb method. The first time around I was eating 15 grams a day and peeing purple consistently. I lost the 100 pounds in less than a year.

Wammo-bammo, magically the 100 pounds comes back, so I'm doing it again, for the final time.

This time I didn't try the ketostix for four months, and I am also losing at much slower pace. So, I thought I would use myself as an experiment because I noticed my breath wasn't bad, either, at any point in time.

I started a protein fast on Friday and by Sunday I was barely pink. I'm still eating zero carbs and I'm back to negative. By the way, zero carbs is very boring and I'll never do it again because it only leads to disaster.

Results are in, my body has become much more efficient. I'll have to be more patient. Throw out the ketostix and just dig in for as long as it takes. I understand from reliable resources that would be about a lifetime long!

It's a commitment one must make with oneself.

Everyone, throw out your ketostix!!!!!!

Thank you.

Heather....

I think you learned an important lesson the hard way. The first time on Atkins, the rapid weight loss is a gift. The next time around (if there is a next time) won't be as quick or as easy. Every time anyone loses weight only to gain it back again, it becomes sucessively harder to lose it again each time. Take your time, move through all of the stages and then stick with maintainance at whatever level of carbs your body can handle. I've been a yo-yo dieter too, so this time it's taking a long time to take off the weight. I did this to myself and I'll deal with it. Besides...this is going to be for a lifetime, so what's the hurry? I'll get there and so will you.