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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Oct-29-03, 12:40
bvtaylor's Avatar
bvtaylor bvtaylor is offline
There and Back Again
Posts: 1,590
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 200/194.4/140 Female 5'3"
BF:42%/42%/20%
Progress: 9%
Location: Northern Colorado
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I came across this from DANDR:

p. 356 -
Quote:
1997: In a twenty-year follow-up of 832 men tracked in the world-famous Framingham Heart Study, researchers matched incidence of stroke (there were 61 in all) with dietary intake. The men with the highest intake of dietary fat had the fewest strokes; the men with the lowest had the most strokes.

He goes on to mention the list of indicators for heart disease, so without knowing what your apparently healthy friends looked like on the inside, it's difficult to speculate:

Quote:
TOTAL CHOLESTEROL
LOW-DENSITY LIPOPROTEIN (LDL)
HIGH-DENSITY LIPOPROTEIN (HDL)
TRYGLYCERIDE
HDL TO TOTAL CHOLESTEROL RATIO
HOMOCYSTEINE is a by-product of defective protein metabolism. An elevated level is a powerful marker for heart disease and stroke risk. High homocysteine levels also indicate a dificiency of folic acide, a B vitamin. (Homocysteine level can be reduced with the intake of vitamins B6, B12, and folic acid.)...
LIPOPROTEIN (A) is a high-risk component of LDL cholesterol. In the last 10 years it has been recognized as a strong risk factor for heart disease and stroke. Elevated levels may indicate insufficient intake of vitamin C, which is needed to maintain healthy blood vessels....
C-REACTIVE PROTEIN is an antibody. It appears that some heart-attack victims actually have an infectious component to their disease, which has little to do with following a sound dietary approach. The result is chronically inflamed blood vessels that are widely regarded as part of the atherosclerotic disease process. High levels of C-reactive protein have been found to increase the risk of heart disease by 4 1/2 times...
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Oct-29-03, 17:58
gfehr3 gfehr3 is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 174/167/165
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Progress: 78%
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Thanks for your reply and added information. I can see that I will need to ask any questions in a much less ambiguous way. My fault for not wording it clearly.

What I have been searching for is the base research findings that support what is currently recommended by US and Canadian nutritionists and the medical communitiy at large. What I have noted is that the Framingham study has been touted as the basis for these recommendations however other very well respected researchers (Mary Enig, University of Maryland for example) reviewed the raw data and have come to different conclusions. Unfortunately much of the raw data research results are hidden from the average person behind pay based electronic publishers.

With the Framingham study It appears to be a case of picking the data that supports the hypothesis and ignoring what doesn't fit or perhaps interpreting the results in a non scientific way. This is generally considered to be an abuse of statistics however only if you get caught.

Still seaching for the underpinnings of our current dietary recommendations. Any help would be appreciated.
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Nov-28-03, 14:22
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IslandGirl IslandGirl is offline
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Posts: 4,909
 
Plan: Atkins,PP - wgt in %
Stats: 100/96.8/69 Female 5'6.5"
BF:DWTK/DDare/JEnuf
Progress: 10%
Location: Vancouver Island, BC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gfehr3
...What I have noted is that the Framingham study has been touted as the basis for these recommendations however other very well respected researchers (Mary Enig, University of Maryland for example) reviewed the raw data and have come to different conclusions. Unfortunately much of the raw data research results are hidden from the average person behind pay based electronic publishers.

With the Framingham study It appears to be a case of picking the data that supports the hypothesis and ignoring what doesn't fit or perhaps interpreting the results in a non scientific way. This is generally considered to be an abuse of statistics however only if you get caught.

Still seaching for the underpinnings of our current dietary recommendations. Any help would be appreciated.
Unfortunately, you have for the most part answered your own question.

There are no true underpinnings for the current dietary recommendations, only assumptions and wide extrapolations from narrow datapoints.

Have you gone to the (I hear now public) Medline at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ ?

You might also find this site an excellent place to track down both pro and con scientific opinions (there's a reason they call them opinions ) at The International Network of Cholesteral Skeptics ... http://www.thincs.org/index.htm ... all scientists tried and true.

The pharmaceutical companies really don't want everybody to know that approximately 50% of heart attack victims have 'normal' cholesteral...

Last edited by IslandGirl : Fri, Nov-28-03 at 14:26.
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Apr-02-04, 21:02
Monika4 Monika4 is offline
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Posts: 989
 
Plan: South beach (modified)
Stats: 185/154/150 Female 5' 6"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gfehr3
What I have been searching for is the base research findings that support what is currently recommended by US and Canadian nutritionists and the medical communitiy at large. What I have noted is that the Framingham study has been touted as the basis for these recommendations however other very well respected researchers (Mary Enig, University of Maryland for example) reviewed the raw data and have come to different conclusions. Unfortunately much of the raw data research results are hidden from the average person behind pay based electronic publishers.

With the Framingham study It appears to be a case of picking the data that supports the hypothesis and ignoring what doesn't fit or perhaps interpreting the results in a non scientific way. This is generally considered to be an abuse of statistics however only if you get caught.

Still seaching for the underpinnings of our current dietary recommendations. Any help would be appreciated.


Those who are saying it isn't clear are right. But it isn't all bias either. Some studies like Framingham and studies in many countries found a correlation between high fat and arteriosclerosis, and when one country (Crete) didn't fit the picture, it was ignored. Later, the mediterranian diet became known as high fat and healthy, and scientists realized ignoring it was throwing out the baby with the bath water.

The other point to remember that studies can't typically provide the whole picture at once. So you will find some sets of studies that state that certain lipids in the blood increase risk for arteriosclerosis, and other studies that correlate diet with these lipids, but few that get all factors at once - and those that do would still be correlational.

Here are some studies that support diet- arteriosclerosis links - first one high fiber, second low glycemic index (incidentally, both are factors that Atkins and the medical establishment seem to agree on):


1. Bazzano LA, He J, Ogden LG, Loria CM, Whelton PK; National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey I Epidemiologic Follow-up Study.
Dietary fiber intake and reduced risk of coronary heart disease in US men and women: the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey I Epidemiologic Follow-up Study.
Arch Intern Med. 2003 Sep 8;163(16):1897-904.

2: Liu S, Willett WC. Related Articles, Links
Dietary glycemic load and atherothrombotic risk.
Curr Atheroscler Rep. 2002 Nov;4(6):454-61.

The following study shows that the more animal protein is eaten the higher the arteriosclerotic risk factors (I know that is non-PC here, but these are the types of studies that made physicians think cause and effect - it is a correlation, not a causation - this study does not show that the higher animal protein diet is the cause!):

J Atheroscler Thromb. 2002;9(6):299-304.
Influence of the extent of westernization of lifestyle on the progression of preclinical atherosclerosis in Japanese subjects.

Egusa G, Watanabe H, Ohshita K, Fujikawa R, Yamane K, Okubo M, Kohno N.

To clarify the influence of a westernized lifestyle on the risk factors for atherosclerosis and preclinical atherosclerosis in Japanese subjects, we surveyed a Japanese population and Japanese immigrants in the United States. Based on the extent of westernization of their lifestyle, the subjects were classified as Japanese (J), first generation Japanese-Americans (JA-I), and second or later generation Japanese-Americans (JA-II). The consumption of animal fat and simple carbohydrates increased in the order of J, JA-I, and JA-II, while the subjects with strenuous physical activity decreased in the same order. The waist-hip ratio, fasting insulin level, serum cholesterol and triglyceride levels, and prevalence of hypertension increased in the same order as the dietary changes. The carotid intima-media wall thickness and the plaque size, which are indices of preclinical atherosclerosis, also increased in the order of J, JA-I, and JA-II. These data indicate that a westernized lifestyle aggravates the risk factors for atherosclerosis and influences the progression of preclinical atherosclerosis, in correspondence with the extent of westernization

P N G Med J. 2001 Sep-Dec;44(3-4):135-50.
Superiority of traditional village diet and lifestyle in minimizing cardiovascular disease risk in Papua New Guineans. excerpts:
..."The rural diets were mainly of vegetarian type, limited in variety and low in fat and protein content. In the urban subjects, the typical meal comprised refined foods with high fat and protein content. The urban men and women had significantly (p < 0.05) greater body weight, body mass index (BMI), and waist and hip circumferences than their rural counterparts."....

This one (from an egg organization) claims cholesterol in diet isn't that bad:
Biochim Biophys Acta. 2000 Dec 15;1529(1-3):310-20.
Dietary cholesterol and atherosclerosis.
McNamara DJ.

Proc Nutr Soc. 2003 Feb;62(1):135-42.
Whole grains protect against atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease
"Atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (ASCVD) is the most common cause of death in most Western countries. Nutrition factors contribute importantly to this high risk for ASCVD. Favourable alterations in diet can reduce six of the nine major risk factors for ASCVD, i.e. high serum LDL-cholesterol levels, high fasting serum triacylglycerol levels, low HDL-cholesterol levels, hypertension, diabetes and obesity. Wholegrain foods may be one the healthiest choices individuals can make to lower the risk for ASCVD. Epidemiological studies indicate that individuals with higher levels (in the highest quintile) of whole-grain intake have a 29 % lower risk for ASCVD than individuals with lower levels (lowest quintile) of whole-grain intake. ...."
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