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  #391   ^
Old Tue, Sep-30-03, 13:04
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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Stats: 160/160/160 Male 64 inches
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hi bv,
anything supported by atkins, i take with a grain of salt. he is selling books and products, and has a huge financial incentive.

as far as the other article, i don't doubt its outcome. it does not in the least interfere with what i know to be true - that burning carbs is highly preferable to burning fat, with regards to virorous cardio.

most of the bicyclists were fairly lean, at 5'11" and about 168, i think he said. so they do not have lots of fat reserves. they had also already had 3 1/2 days of a 70% carbo loading diet. it does not surprise me in the least, that adding some fat at that point in time, might be helpful.

we do not want to allow the body to get into any sort of protection mode. i do not know what sort of diet these bicyclists had, in terms of proper amounts of protein and essential fats.

but if you take 2 people of equal cardio ability, get them both equally balanced, as well as good-balanced, so that the body is not apt to go into protection mode. then the day before, one guy eats a low-carb, high fat diet, while the other guy eats a high-carb, low-fat diet, the high carb guy will win like taking candy from a baby.

i keep myself balanced. i make sure i get my protein, essential fats, and phytos every single day. because i do this, my remainder carb diet will run circles around the low-carb guy. all i have to do is push him to an intense enough level that his body freezes up, and i will wave bye-bye to him, as i merrily speed along.

also, don't forget that your body will try to burn fat whenever possible, to preserve its sugar. when you tire, and slow down, the body will again try to burn some fat, because it knows its glycogen stores are puny when compared to its fat stores, and it expects you to start needing the sugar again.

so if i am battling the low-carb guy, my goal would be to force him to stay at a high intensity to keep up with me, knowing that there is no way that he could do that. sorta reminds me of the racer who does not have a kick at the end, trying to run fast enough to burn the other guy out, so that he runs out of gas before he gets to the end. once you understand the whole picture, it is a bit easier to see.
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  #392   ^
Old Tue, Sep-30-03, 13:15
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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Plan: none
Stats: 160/160/160 Male 64 inches
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Default correction : skeletal

my comment about vigorous cardio not being good for the skeletal was assuming you were on your feet, your body taking a pounding. if your weight is supported, like swimming or bicycling, then your skeleton is of course no longer taking a beating.

my most vigorous routine puts me on my feet. in order to save my feet and ankles, i have to ace bandage up quite a bit. it can also be hard on the knees. so i do that only twice a week, from both an injury standpoint, and an energy consumption standpoint. your body needs time to recover from intense cardio, if you expect it to keep delivering for you year after year.
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  #393   ^
Old Tue, Sep-30-03, 13:23
MishInAZ MishInAZ is offline
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Posts: 85
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 205/199/130 Female 65"
BF:33%
Progress: 8%
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
my comment about vigorous cardio not being good for the skeletal was assuming you were on your feet, your body taking a pounding. if your weight is supported, like swimming or bicycling, then your skeleton is of course no longer taking a beating.


You know, I have to comment on something. I started reading this whole thread and to be really honest I skipped about 200+ posts because I saw that you were really writing the same thing over and over again. Almost as though if you type it enough times we will finally believe you.

That isn't how debate works. You make a claim, you defend your claim. You haven't done that. Everything is based on your opinions. You have read books, you know some guy that is 70-80 years old and he is your dieting guru... (or so it seems) and many many other unsubstantiated claims. That is not impressive in a debate setting.

Do you have any formal education in the area of the human body?

I don't think you realize it but you do more to support the low carb/Atkins way of losing weight more than any pro-Atkins person I have ever encountered. That is due to your posting style.

You make these sweeping generalizations about "most low carbers...." and when I ask for sources you write posts not identifying who the post is to or what comment you are referring to. Who knows which posts you are actually responding to?

Convenient... however that is JMHO.

Last edited by MishInAZ : Tue, Sep-30-03 at 13:25.
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  #394   ^
Old Tue, Sep-30-03, 13:31
Kestrel Kestrel is offline
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You contend that you'll outperform low carb persons. Again, anecdotal. If we're accepting such claims, then I, as low carb, contend that I have no problem competing with high-carb persons, high intensity or not.

Time will tell, as low carb enthusiasts either gain or decline in the population. If they gain, then more athletes are likely to experiment with low carb. Then the issue of performance will become more defined.
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  #395   ^
Old Tue, Sep-30-03, 15:49
alaskaman alaskaman is offline
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Plan: Dr Bernstein
Stats: 195/175/170
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I have to agree with Kestrel, I realized that I may not be as 'cardio" as gymee, but I can climb the same mountain passes now that I did as a 28 year old, back then was stopping every hour or so to have "trail mix" or "gorp" full of sugars, raisins, m & m's, etc. Now at almost 60 I pass the spots I used to snack at, don't stop, keep going on fat and protein. I cannot agree that God would have created us with a metabolism that only functions best with a substance (carbohydrate/sugar) that is unknown in some parts of the world, seasonal in others. Obviously, if gymee switched, he'd fall on his face, as he says. But with enough adjustment, he'd be back to his old self. And If that turned out NOT be true, that he really couldn't do his workouts on a fat/protein based diet, then I'd say that's nature's way of telling him what he's doing is unnatural, kind of like steroids. Cardio workout, two IV's, glucose in one arm, steroids in the other, look at me go.
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  #396   ^
Old Tue, Sep-30-03, 16:00
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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kestrel,
from your point of view, i can agree that it would be undefined. from my point of view, it is not. time will certainly tell - and there will be no comparison.

as far as saturated fat with low carbs, being bad for the arteries, i at least have some level of doubt. i have absolutely none with fat and carbs and high intensity carbo. for you see, that has been an integral part of most of my life.

you guys like to read studies, that is fine. i am the study, in my case, and like i said before, i will tip my cap to anyone who can keep up with me. so you see, i know just a little more than the average bloke about it. RESULTS RESULTS RESULTS
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  #397   ^
Old Tue, Sep-30-03, 19:48
alaskaman alaskaman is offline
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Plan: Dr Bernstein
Stats: 195/175/170
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You ARE the study, Results, you really can't say. You know, most if not all of the people replying to you have probably tried dif. approaches to diet, including vegetarian, some "balanced" plans similar to yours. And we find our results, that we improve in measureable ways. You made up your mind long ago, can only keep repeating how healthy you are, no way of knowing whether you'd have been as healthy on some other plan. You will say"no way" but have nothing to base it on, except faith, in who? Udo Erasmus? whatever. You haven't eaten meat in 25 years, your mind was made up long ago. Never tried anything else as far as I can tell, except for a more unhealthy carb-based diet. So give us credit, lots of us have been there, done that, lowcarb works, we know cause we've seen the other side of the coin. Eat all meat for a year or so, come back here and report your comparison. Bill
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  #398   ^
Old Wed, Oct-01-03, 02:07
Yar Yar is offline
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Plan: Paleo
Stats: 175/143/143
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gymeejet, suggest you change your diet or you will be at the bar having drinks with Elvis.
Yar

.............................
Reducing the serum cholesterol level with a diet high in animal fat.

Newbold HL.

Multiple food allergies required a group of seven patients with elevated serum cholesterol levels to follow a diet in which most of the calories came from beef fat. Their diets contained no sucrose, milk, or grains. They were given nutritional supplements. This is the only group of people in recent times to follow such a diet. During the study, the patients' triglyceride levels decreased from an average of 113 mg/dl to an average of 74 mg/dl; at the same time, their serum cholesterol levels fell from an average of 263 mg/dl to an average of 189 mg/dl. At the beginning of the study, six of the patients had an average high-density lipoprotein percentage of 21%. At the end of the study, the average had risen to 32%. These findings raise an interesting question: are elevated serum cholesterol levels caused in part not by eating animal fat (an extremely "old food"), but by some factor in grains, sucrose, or milk ("new foods") that interferes with cholesterol metabolism?

PMID: 3336803 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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  #399   ^
Old Wed, Oct-01-03, 02:20
Yar Yar is offline
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Plan: Paleo
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This may also be of interest to gymeejet.
How anyone could eat something that was known to be toxic, together with inducing human T-cells to attack the intestine, this is where the degenerative diseases come from. [Grains and Processed foods]

Yar

STANFORD RESEARCHERS FIND CAUSE, POSSIBLE CURE FOR GLUTEN INTOLERANCE
STANFORD, Calif. – A team of investigators led by Stanford University researchers have discovered the cause and a potential treatment for celiac sprue, an autoimmune disease that leads to an inability to digest gluten, a major protein in wheat, rye and barley products. The disease is estimated to afflict as many as 1 in 200 Americans.

In the Sept. 27 issue of Science, researchers identify a fragment of gluten called gliadin as the celiac culprit. They showed that this fragment is resistant to digestion and is responsible for the intestine-damaging inflammatory response experienced by celiac patients. They also report the use of a dietary enzyme made by a bacterium that can break down the fragment into harmless bits, suggesting future treatment through dietary supplements.

“These findings are the first step to giving people with celiac disease real hope for a normal life,” said Chaitan Khosla, PhD, professor of chemistry, chemical engineering and, by courtesy, of biochemistry. Lu Shan, a graduate student in Khosla’s lab, was lead author on the paper. The team included other Stanford researchers as well as a group from the University of Oslo in Norway.

The lining of the small intestine is normally carpetlike, covered with small protrusions called villi. Celiac disease, however, results in a smooth, pipelike intestine. The reduced surface area keeps the body from absorbing nutrients. Often diagnosed in childhood, the disease can lead to the distended stomach and stunted growth typical of starvation.

“The only effective therapy for most people is a lifelong gluten-free diet, and that’s fairly restrictive,” explained co-author Gary M. Gray, professor of medicine, emeritus. The diet is essential over the long term both to restore normal intestinal function and to reduce the risk of developing osteoporosis, lymphoma or cancer of the small intestine, he added.

In the laboratory, Shan simulated the digestive process, exposing gliadin to digestive enzymes in test tubes. She identified a protein fragment made up of 33 amino acids that was resistant to further digestion and whose structure was known to be toxic. Most proteins are broken down into small peptides of between two and six amino acids or into single amino acids. She then repeated her study in rats and again in test tubes using tissue taken by biopsy from patients undergoing unrelated medical procedures. “Even with prolonged treatment (exposure to intestinal enzymes), the peptide doesn’t lose the ability to induce the inflammatory response,” Shan said.

When they looked more closely at the fragment, Shan and her colleagues found that it was made up of even smaller fragments already known to induce human T-cells to attack the intestine. The team in Norway then measured the ability of the gliadin fragment to induce autoimmune activity. “The response by T-cells was about 10 to 20 times higher than the smaller peptides themselves,” Shan said.

Because the fragment is rich in the amino acid proline, investigators reasoned that a peptidase (an enzyme that breaks down proteins) with the ability to digest proline-rich chains might be able to break down the gliadin fragment, rendering it harmless to celiac patients. They have now shown that this is the case in test tubes and in rats. Because there are no animal models of celiac disease, testing this approach in humans is a long way off and will require further preclinical work, Khosla said.

“We think that this mode of therapy – peptidase supplementation – may offer hope in treating celiac sprue eventually, and we’re going to test this hypothesis.”
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  #400   ^
Old Wed, Oct-01-03, 15:17
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/5/28-99286.html

Can't go the distance on low carb? Better not tell Dr. Trager that!

He placed 39th overall in the 2001 Florida Ironman competition...on maintainance levels of low carb!

Last edited by Lisa N : Wed, Oct-01-03 at 15:40.
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  #401   ^
Old Wed, Oct-01-03, 16:03
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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http://www.buffalo.edu/news/fast-ex...&hilite=Dandona
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/co...tract/85/8/2970

Hmmm...how much sugar was in those dates again???


http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...81126103305.htm

It also appears that if your goal is to stay young looking, a high fructose diet isn't the best way to achieve it.

Last edited by Lisa N : Wed, Oct-01-03 at 16:07.
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  #402   ^
Old Wed, Oct-01-03, 16:21
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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Stats: 160/160/160 Male 64 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digwig
Hi Gymee,


Thanks for answering my earlier question, but I guess what I was looking for was for you to explain why my cardiac health markers improved if saturated fat is so bad for me. I know that you feel my diet improved generally and that's what caused the improvement, but an improvement is an improvement and would seem to show that my fat consumption is not a problem. Are you saying that my blood work would be even more perfect ( ) if I reduced the amount of saturated fat in my diet?
Dig


hi dig,
at one time you were obese. so certainly your body was way out of kilter. i am assuming that it was mostly due to processed foods, containing too much sugar, as well as a host of other bad stuff. by fixing that, your health will improve a lot. but those foods did not immediately drive all your tests wild. it took awhile for the damage to occur. just continue to keep a watch on your cholesterol and triglyceride count, as well as your blood pressure. if you are getting a large amount of blockage in a large thoroughfare, your bp should rise. it will take many years before we know just what this high intake of saturated fat does. although it seems to vary quite a bit among the low-carbers. and i think it was you who told me of one low-carb plan that trys to limit the saturated fat. so perhaps they are not all suicidal. LOL.
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  #403   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-03, 13:44
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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Plan: none
Stats: 160/160/160 Male 64 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digwig
Hi Gymee,

It's just my opinion, but if you're eating 40 of anything, I wouldn't qualify that as having "no desire to have just one more." True, you are getting 200 grams of sugar with 40 dates instead of almost 400 grams with 75 cookies, but dates take longer to eat than cookies and your "earlier" satiety with the dates may be due to passing time rather than anything else. In essence, your "I'm full" message has time to kick in. I would also suggest that the "staying power" of your meal has to do more with your "protein/fat concoction" than the fruit.
Dig


hi dig,
i guess it would depend on what we are eating, but i would agree that 40 dates is a nice meal. the main point was that the cookies never did fill me up, while that many dates would keep me full for hours - quite a difference. as far as staying power, the body requires both protein and essential fats for its anabolic metabolic functions, and sugar/fats for its catabolic metabolic functions. if it is lacking in either, it will give us hunger signals, hoping we know what nutrients it is looking for. i know the difference, for myself, when my body wants sugar, or when it wants protein and essential fat - the feeling is different, yet i would have a hard time describing that difference, as it is something that is totally experiential.

i'm sure you guys would gasp at my salad meal, as it is almost all carbs, and it would not surprise me in the least, if it was 1000 calories. but then sometime later in the evening, i balance that out, by finishing up my eating with my protein concoction, which i faithfully eat twice a day. this concoction gives me my main protein and essential fats requirements for the day, and it is easy for me to do twice a day, so i do that, and then just eat MOSTLY natural carbs the rest of the time, although my workout drink does contain some whey protein.
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  #404   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-03, 21:57
bvtaylor's Avatar
bvtaylor bvtaylor is offline
There and Back Again
Posts: 1,590
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 200/194.4/140 Female 5'3"
BF:42%/42%/20%
Progress: 9%
Location: Northern Colorado
Exclamation Check!

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...ke_dc&printer=1

Scientists Say Fatty Diet Not Linked to Stroke Risk


LONDON (Reuters) - Eating a diet high in fat does not seem to raise the odds of having a stroke, researchers in the United States said on Friday.


High blood pressure is the most important risk factor for stroke but unlike heart disease, a high fat disease does not have an impact on stroke. "In our study we did not find any association between dietary fat and stroke," said Dr. Ka He of Northwestern University, Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago.


Although further research is needed to confirm their findings, He and his colleagues said blood cholesterol is probably not an important predictor of stroke.


The scientists, who reported their findings in The British Medical Journal, stressed that eating a healthy well balanced diet is vital to prevent heart disease and other ailments.


Lowering blood pressure, regular exercise, not smoking, moderate alcohol intake and a normal weight are important for preventing stroke.


Their results are based on a study of 43,732 healthy middle-aged men who were studied for 14 years. More than 800 men suffered a stroke. The researchers looked at total fat intake, specific types of fat and cholesterol and the risk of stroke.


"There is no association between total fat, types of fat and stroke," He, who conducted the study while at Harvard School of Public Health in Boston, added.

Stroke is caused by an interrupted blow flow to the brain or when a blood vessel bursts or leaks. About two-thirds of stroke patients are over 65 years old. Each year an estimated 700,000 Americans have a stroke, according to the American Stroke Association.


Signs of stroke include sudden numbness on one side of the body, confusion, difficulty speaking, dizziness and severe headache.
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  #405   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-03, 23:02
MishInAZ MishInAZ is offline
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Posts: 85
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 205/199/130 Female 65"
BF:33%
Progress: 8%
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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gymeejet...

Perhaps I missed the post but I don't see where you answered *any* of my questions. You know, those questions regarding your posting style and your education.

You *do* have specialized education in all the claims you are making regarding the human body, right? RIGHT? You see, I do have further education in the human body and what you are saying... well, it just doesn't add up. You are not correct in many of your statements.

I have asked for studies, educational demonstration, pretty much anything to substantiate your opinions and... nothing.

Gee whiz, I feel so sad. Are you ignoring me? Surely that can't be true, can it?

Nahhhhhhh....
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