Hello everyone,
You paleopeople really rock! Dare I say it but you just seem more in touch with the spirituality of food. This probably sounds pretty weird but I find the whole L.Carbing phenomenon leading the human race almost inexorably towards better health seems to sync pretty neatly with a growing need for spiritual (not religious)
awareness. I would hazard a guess that a WOEating that takes us back to our genetic inheritance is probably a necessary step in true spiritual awakening. That earlier thread that mentioned the 'blood connection' aspect of paleo eating in terms of reconnecting us to a true reverence for the earth and seems to also foster a sense of connectedness to our fellow travellers on this planet (and I don't only mean Human).

Which in a round about kind of way brings me to the real reason for opening this thread. It's been fascinating reading various comments about how much better people feel when they eat meat. I've always found that the manifold benefits of lowcarbing are magnified considerably when I'm eating red meat. I enjoy chicken and fish, but however they are prepared , I always feel slightly deprived after such a meal . It's almost a kind of carb craving, but a carb craving that carbs (when I've succumbed) never even come close to satisfying. But even small amounts of red meat , even just meat for a meal (however gastronomically boring it is) will keep me feeling satisfied for hours. No wonder the eskimos like seal so much! The really interesting thing is this : I've always liked my steak really rare. Sometimes when I'm preparing a meal just for me, I don't even bother cooking it at all. Particularly if you chop it finely and smother it in herbs and spices, and a really good extra virgin olive oil, I actually prefer the taste raw. I don't want offend anyone's sensibilities, and I probably am a bit odd , but preparing steak this way satisfies my appetite for much longer. You know how even when you've had a good meal , it is usually only an hour or two before the idea of food pops into your consciousness yet again. Red meat- and the rarer(interesting how rare is so close to raw) it is the better - prolongs the time when you are not just distracting yourself from the need to eat, you are more like completely oblivious to your stomach. I'm pretty sure part of the reason for this is that it is that red meat is such an ideal food for the human digestive tract. What do you think? Maybe not globally sustainable (at present population levels), maybe not philosophically correct (with presently employed slaughtering techniques ), and certainly hardly environmentally sensitive or sensible (if we go on prefering beef over a wider range of red meat sources). But simply a whole lot better for you.

By the way Shandy Andy , I'd just tell your mates that you've got cirrhosis of the liver, and then chuckle conspiratorially in a way that they can't help but wonder if you're really joking!

cheers,
Stuart

I tend to agree with everything you've said. However, I am a bit cautious about eating raw meat around these parts of the Great Northwest. Meat needs to be cooked because of the possibility of food poisoning...which I have been a victim of. On premise, i agree about raw meat, though. I have found that since starting this woe, I eat everything...I never used to do that. I always put the fat on the side...I was repulsed by it. Now, i look for it and it is the first thing I eat! I really love the "Rawness," but I err on the side of caution due to having suffered through a really awful bout of the "Cow's Revenge." I like elk meat, but it isn't fat enough for my present tastes. There is something very primal about eating deer, elk, snake, pheasant, wild turkey, squirrel...I wouldn't have touched these things a couple of years back, but now I want to get a big gun and go kill something for my dinner plate. Forget the "sport" of killing. I don't think of it as a "sport" to kill living creatures. They were put there for our use and enjoyment. I can use and enjoy one when I'm cooking and eating it. But, give me a gun, and point me to where the wild animals are, and I'll kill one without hesitation (after thanking him or her for giving me the opportunity to dine off them and become healthier), so I can eat it. Kind of reminds me of Douglas Adam's "Restaurant at the End of the Universe." Boy! I'll bet there are vegans whose ears are twitching just from what I've written. Maybe even a few from this forum. Oh, well. To each his own.

hey, stilt0 & captxray,

Right on with what you say!

I am of northern euro descent, and have no problem understanding why I feel better and have NO digestive ailments after switching from a (almost) vegan diet to a paleo diet comprised of mostly red meat. I agree with what you say about how satiated one can get when eating it. I don't think I would trust raw meat, but rare is how I always eat it.

One question for you two (and anyone else that has ideas on the subject). Why is it that I crave fat so much, and why is it that fat makes me feel even better than the red meat aspect? I have eaten leaner meats, like deer and elk and bison, but it just does not seem to satisfy me like eating fatty cattle or pork or eggs. I have lately been experimenting with eating (for the first meal of the day) eggs and bacon/pork sausage, fried in large amounts of butter. I will even pour the excess butter and grease over the top of this plate of fatty food. (I have not tried lard yet, but I might). I have noticed a real improvement in my energy levels, my moods, mental alertness, my satisfaction, etc. It's funny how in years past I would always blame this type of eating for severe digestive disturbances, when in reality it was the toast and/or pancakes I ate along with these foods that was really the culprit! Now my stomach is as quite as a mouse after eating this type of food. Same thing with chicken skins, etc.

My question is why, if our ancestors ate mostly lean game meat, do I crave fat and feel so much better when eating it? My skin looks better, etc. I have heard that saturated fat is the best thing you can eat for your heart (in fact it is what your heart muscle uses for energy). Did our ancestors really eat a lot of saturated fat (like the Eskimos)? Is that why I crave it so much, and it makes me feel so good?

Loren Cordain, in his book 'The Paleo Diet', warns against eating the "wrong kinds" of fat (mainly saturated fat). He says that paleo people ate lots of very lean game meat, and very few eggs. So, is it true that one should watch their saturated fat intake? I am starting to have doubts about it. But, from an evolutionary perspective, have a hard time explaining it. Unless, my ancestors ate saturated fat along with their red meat.

I have this nagging hunch that saturated fat (along with other types of fats, like omega-3, etc) are actually very healthy, and, along with good quality protein like red meat and eggs, is a part of a powerful combination of food!

Can anyone give me some insights into this?

Would really appreciate it.

Thanks.

BTW... I know what you mean about getting a big gun and killing some wild herbivores! IMHO, it is actually the smartest, most healthy, caring, animal loving, humane, ecologically sound thing a person can do! The best quality food you can possibly put in your mouth is the meat from an animal that lived in the wild and was shot in the head and killed instantly, with no stress to it's being. Alive and free one minute, and a wonderful foodstuff for you the next. No torturous life in between. The healthiest thing you can do for the animals you kill are to kill them in a way that helps control their population, which will allow all of them to enjoy a more trauma free existence, and at the same time help the ecology of the earth (and the food chain) you are a part of. Sure beats chopping down all the trees to pave the planet with cornfields! I have never been hunting in my life, but plan to purchase a rifle soon with a good scope so as to "cleanly" kill deer and elk, etc.

>My question is why, if our ancestors ate mostly lean game meat, >do I crave fat and feel so much better when eating it? My skin >looks better, etc. I have heard that saturated fat is the best >thing you can eat for your heart (in fact it is what your heart >muscle uses for energy). Did our ancestors really eat a lot of >saturated fat (like the Eskimos)? Is that why I crave it so much, >and it makes me feel so good?

I read a book years ago called, " At Home In The Woods," by
Bradford Angier. In the book he tells how frontier-men would die from was known as "Rabbit Malnutrition." It was caused from not getting enough fat in their diet, eating only lean meats like rabbit and deer. Indians, avoided this because they always carried beaver fat with them, and would cook their meat with it.

Fascinating stuff about the lean meat death syndrome. One thing I remember noticing years ago in more ignorant low fat times was how difficult it was to feel warm in cold weather if my fat intake was low. Interestingly enough my mother who has battled with being very overweight most of her seventy odd years and has tried to address this with low fat diets, also reports more sensitivity to cold weather . You'd think if it was just a simple insulation effect of fat she'd cope with the cold weather well. I've always been really skinny , but as soon as I started eating a lot more fat (both saturated and not) I seem to be able to laugh at the cold with exactly the same dress habits. It is also well documented that predatory animals (humans included ) always seem to go for the fattiest parts of their kill first. The fattiest organ of all - the brain - is prized above all. Unfortunately most animals do it tough and are lean , so fat is rare in the wild . Humans would never have evolved such a big brain without a huge saturated fat intake. I think the whole low fat philosophy is a kind of puritanical gross misinterpretation of our evolutionary heritage. I really haven't seen a reputable study yet that even suggests a convincing causal link between high saturated fat / low carb diet and degenerative disease. The glycerol pathway of supplying the brain's small requirement for some glucose from fat in the diet (not from protein through gluconeogenesis) coupled with the other benefits of high fat intakes - IN THE ABSENCE OF SIGNIFIGANT AMOUNTS OF ANY CARBOHYDRATE- make the optimal dietary ratios of Fat , Carbs, Protein an absolute no brainer IMHO. Curious little snippets like the backwoodsmen dying slowly from not getting enough saturated fat just continue to zip it up for me. Besides, I just continue to notice dramatic health improvements in myself and the many friends and associates who just can't ignore the advantages and make the change. BTW, you sound a bit squeamish about the raw meat thing because of parasite risk. If you like your meat rare, then even if it's just a little bit pink inside it just hasn't reached high enough temperatures to kill any parasites. The outside might look scorched and a dead zone, but the inside (if at all pink) is biologically very much alive. Trust your body. Get fresh meat ,get enough sleep, and keep your carbs low and your immune system will deal with any parasites. Cooking your meat sufficiently to kill parasites basically ruins it's nutritional value any way. Believe me if you already enjoy a rare steak a well seasoned raw steak is infinitely more delicious. Unfortunately you will have to contend with the 'normal' people thinking you are a bit weird. Oh well!
Cheers,
Stuart

On the subject of meat and fat, here in Australia if we need some advice on paleo diets, we just go and ask them in person! Many australian aborigines are only two generations away from H/G and still indulge in "recreational H & G" in the same way as Inuit do. They have a huge knowledge of wild foods.

Here's a great article about food such as fat and grain in the diet of a recent paleo people.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditi...aborigines.html

The article is written in the past tense, but my partner who is aboriginal is going up to the Bunya Mountains (3 hours drive from Brisbane) on Friday for an artistic weekend, and always comes home with some Bunya nuts to roast ... see reference in article. BTW aborigines have eaten lots of legumes and grains, particularly wild Millet and Acacia seeds for at least 60 000 years.

Michael
Brisbane Australia

Michael here again.
The quick reply textbox chewed that URL
It should read as follows. Stick the following together end to end and it should work!

http://www.westonaprice.org/
traditional_diets/australian_aborigines.html

It seems like the key is a natural diet with minimal processing. I don't much miss the grains, but was definitely suffering without my beloved yam...

lol at myself,

phrank

> Humans would never have evolved such a big brain without a huge saturated fat intake. <
Humans ate lots of brains once they figured out how to crack open the skulls (and bones) of other predators' leftover kills. Does the brain and marrow have lots of saturated fat? And, later, when humans developed the skills to hunt for themselves, where did the saturated fat come from? Why does Cordain warn against eating saturated fat, when he is supposedly the "leading expert" on paleo diets? AND, the most important question... could the problem be that GRAIN fed animals' fat is NOT the same as wild animals (unbalanced fatty acid composition/omega 6/9 ratio, reduced CLA, etc)? Could this be the reason for Cordain's warnings, as well as possible health problems associated with "a high (saturated) fat" diet? My personal hunch is that fat is VERY good (and necessary) for people... however, it may really depend on where that fat is coming from - grain fed animals or wild (grass fed) animals. I have been searching for grass fed food, and have found lots of farms near by that raise it (everything from bison, elk, deer, cows, pigs, chickens, lamb, etc). I plan on doing bulk purchases of this meat (and fat) and primarily eating this type of food (versus the grain fed stuff found at the local supermarket). Does anyone have any thoughts on these things?

i agree completely. how did you find the farms near you? i will do the same. did you look on the internet or word of mouth or what? you have the right idea.....

Hi Kay!

I did use the web to find the farms.

here are some links...

http://www.heall.com/resource/food/

http://www.heall.com/resource/food/new_york.htm

http://www.eatwild.com/

http://www.eatwild.com/products/newyork.html

At the bottom of this page, you can click on other states, like New Jersey, etc.

You can also just use a search engine like...

http://www.google.com/

And put in your state (New York) and/or surrounding states, and then put "grass-fed" "farms" "bison", "elk", "deer", etc. I found other farms this way. Like there is a site for MEFA (Missouri Elk Farmers Association) that has a huge list of farms in Missouri. And another for Deer Farms. I just searched on my Street Atlas program for the cities or zip codes to find ones near Kansas City... then I have just been calling & visiting farms. I have already found a place very near to get beef, pork, lamb, chicken, turkey, rabbit... and another place to get bison... and so on...

I have an upright freezer that holds up to 500 lbs of meat, but I don't plan on having anymore than 2-300 lbs around at one time... want to have it as fresh as possible. Plus, I don't want to pay extra for vacuum packing and such. If you get 1/4 of large animals and 1/2 of smaller ones, you usually get a good enough price break versus buying by the cut. I average about $3.00/lb for all the different meats & cuts (which is pretty good for the high quality meat you get - and believe me, when you taste it you will know how good it really is).

Hope this helps.

Good luck.

- Dean

hi paleodeano!

thanks so much. i am moving to columbus, ohio this weekend so will look around that area. how do you feel since you have been eating ths way? i am going to try to start a neandethin/atkins induction this mon. once i am settled in my new place. too hard to start when your life is in flux but i will stay lc till then. did you feel great from the start or did you go thru a transition... weak, tired stage? do you use oils like flax, hemp, olive? i would be curious to see what you eat on a typical day. do you keep a journal? and one more thing...until i can get to the "happy farms" , is buffalo always a safe bet? i get it at whole foods (organic chain) and i think it's always grass fed but i may be way off on that?? do you know? well, stay in touch! and take care, kay

Boy, Kay, you really get around! You just moved to New York City?, and now are moving (back?) to Ohio! Reminds me of that movie "The Out-Of-Towners"!


Looks like there are plenty of farms in Ohio... you should have no problem at all!

http://www.heall.com/resource/food/ohio.htm

http://www.eatwild.com/products/ohio.html

Bison (it's not really buffalo) is a good bet... however, there are some farms that are not too hip to the health issues, and are more concerned with making sure the meat is tender (marbled, shall we say!) and do finish the animals off on grains! Sort of defeats the purpose of eating them! So, it is best to check out who is raising the animals. If you find out from the store, you can then check out the farm on the web, perhaps, or call them or something. There are enough bison farms around Kansas that I find out if ANY grain is used, and if so, I don't deal with them, since there are so many others that never use any grains. They have them grazing on native grass, and during the harshest times of the winter, they will feed them hay (from those grasses). If you get a younger animal (like around 24 months) and you cook the meat correctly (very important) then the meat is very tender and very rich tasting... and of course, extremely healthy for you! Make sure the processor does not discard any of the fat (have them put it in the burger).

http://www.greatplainsbison.com/all_about_buffalo.html

I feel great when I eat LC. My energy and moods are more level. I have much more stamina for exercise, etc. Of course, when first starting, and doing very low carb, I felt tired and sluggish. I did not exercise at all for a week. But, then, the energy level kicks in, and your metabolism changes over and you start feeling great!

I do use flax oil (for the omega 3). If all I ever ate was wild animals and fish, I would probably feel I did not need it. But, wild salmon is so very expensive! (Wish I lived in Alaska!). I only take 1 tblsp/day of flax oil.

I don't keep a journal, but typically I eat 4 farm fresh jumbo eggs from free range chickens fried in about 1/8 lb of butter (the only non-paleo food I eat) with bacon (no nitrates) or sausage (natural) or burger... or pork chop or steak... every morning. Good way to start the day (with plenty of good animal fat!). I eat a mid-morning snack of nuts (almonds/pecans/walnuts) and low-carb fruit. Lunch is either a salad with eggs and chicken/turkey meat... or shrimp (with low carb/high fat dressing, like Caesar or ranch - there might be a small amount of dairy here as well), or a piece of meat and vegetable (or vegetable dish, like cucumber salad). Then a mid-afternoon snack of nuts and fruit (or guacamole and celery and deviled eggs)... then dinner of meat and veggies with loads of butter (or veggie dish) or meat/veggie dish (like stir fry, or lamb stew with loads of butter, or no bean venison "chili"). I keep carbs low (probably under 30 grams/day) and fat as high as possible! Steak sauce is probably the highest carb food I do... or certain fruit (although I eat as low-carb fruit as I can). I eat only natural food (nothing processed), and try to get the largest variety of foods I can in my diet... this includes many different types of animals (and cuts - and organ meats), and different fruits and veggies.

So, are you really wanting to do a complete neanderthin diet (no dairy or grains/legumes, etc)? I once did strict neanderthin (just like Ray details in his book) for several months. My cholesterol (complete lipo profile) was the best it had ever been! And, I lost weight and body fat effortlessly. Although, I have really upped the fat and lowered the carbs since those days... hence the use of butter in my diet. My weight and body fat really have taken a dive since doing this.

Good luck on your transition...
Watch the carbs, but don't start "counting" till you are settled...

Take care, Kay

- Dean

Dean,
it gets even better...as soon as my move to ohio is complete, i will be moving to kansas city! in with you! you know too much...i would never have to read another book, look up another article or cook another meal because you would do it all for me! just dreaming! i am moving BACK to ohio because my health is weird and scaring me. i have been a lean and beyond energetic girl all my life. this 20 pound gain happened overnight....but more importantly, i feel awful. so i am going to do nothing but get myself balanced and well. it's such a cliche but you really do have nothing if you dont have your health...so. one more Q for you: when you upped the fat, did you gain more fat? where did you learn all this? i'm impressed....i've learned a lot too but its because of my own health issues...not for fun, recreational, hobby reasons like i would prefer. i eat this way to keep myself from falling over (small exagerration)...some days i feel great, others, are frightening. i see the doc on wed. to get results on a test he did. not looking forward to it.....i hope you stick around. i have a feeling i'll have a few more Qs for you once i start this on mon. (ps dont be offended by my improper use of grammar etc...i am schooled... but it's makes for faster typing...that's all

you take care, kay

ps
thank you so much for your responses. especially the web sites and the peak into your daily menus! have a good one!