Hello everyone,

I have been on Atkins for some time now and have been trying to figure out a few things about starvation mode.

How long would you need to eat low amount of calories to get into starvation mode?

A day, two days more. What if you eat low one day and high next day and then repeat, would that put you in starvation mode?

What if you just do a low calorie day once a week and mix up the day, one week Friday, one week Wednesday.

Would that place you in starvation mode?


What if you exercise a lot and normal, but with the high exercise you might not realize that you are actually too low in calories for your activity level (but above 1500 a day), would that place you in starvation mode?

I have not been able to even find an average time a body would place itself in starvation mode, 3 days? A week?

Anyone has any iformation or experiences to share?

Thank you very much for your responses in advance.
If I posted this in a wrong forum, I appologize.
I might also post this in general low carb forum, if it is ok to do it two places.

Hi,

I am tempted to ask before I answer "Why do you want to know?"

What I read into you question is that you more or less know that starvation mode is not a good idea but wonder how close you can sail to the wind without the bad effects kicking in.

You give very little away in your profile as to how young you are what sex you are and do not say anything about what you are trying to achieve.

The question that you ask suggests that you are still in a "counting calories" state of mind. Most low carbers whilst keeping a sidewise glance at calories do not bother to count and concentrate on just the carbs.

But to answer your question, you need a sustained period of under eating to be truly into starvation.

Two studies, one conducted in the late forties and another 20 years later, suggest that when we starve ourselves, whether by circumstance or design, we change more than just our appearance. Even in the stable, developed countries of the western world, often accused of being too well fed, some people are at risk for starvation, malnutrition, and hunger.

Starvation was the biggest risk to our ancestors and the body has developed ways of coping. We have evolved the ability to go into a protective "starvation mode," shut down the body, bank the fires, endure privation, and at the same time sharpen the drive to search for food.

The evidence from the various studies is clear: The person in starvation mode shuts down physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, and heightens his or her attention to food. This is documented in both a Minnesota Starvation Study conducted in the late forties and Collin Turnbull's anthropologicstudy of a starving African tribe during the mid-1960s drought.

It only takes a small stretch to relate this to dieters, patients on weight loss programs, and those with eating disorders

One man in the Minnesota study developed major personality disturbances after just 10 weeks on a diet of about 1,500calories. He had lost only 10 pounds, 7 percent of his weight,yet mentally and emotionally he was in the starvation mode,even though his diet was less strict than many weight loss regimens.

What can we expect from people in starvation mode?

For one thing, an increase in food preoccupation. Food is constantly on the mind.

How might family and social relationships suffer?

Reduced to the lowest level of survival, people become introspective looking out for himself or herself alone, distrustful, and sometime meanspirited."

So you see my worry, questions about flirting with the borders of starvation could be the very beginnings of the road - not to weight loss - but to an eating disorder. Many who suffer from anorexia live with levels of starvation; they and their families know well these painful effects.

Would we be so eager to leap into a low calorie weight loss program if we truly understood what happens to the person who goes into starvation mode? I think not.

What you should be working out is how much protein you need. The chapter in Protein Power is good for calculating that. And then choose a low carb programme that fits with your lifestyle and follow that (Atkins is fine)..........until it becomes a permanent way of eating. Low carb is not just for Christmas.

Dicing with starvation is not advocated by this forum and is generally regarded as another form of yo yo dieting. It is not sustainable in the long run. Sometime to break a stall the Atkins fat fast is used but it is not a long term good idea.

The worry about getting close to starvation mode is that it is mistakenly believed that weight loss equals fat loss. That is not so. You want to loss excess fat. You do not wish to lose existing muscle. This you will do in indescriminate calorie reduction which limits protein.

So.... how much should you be eating to avoid starvation mode is the question you should be asking .... and that figure.....the only time that low carbers think about calories...... is aproximately 10-12 times your weight in pounds. So for a 150 pound woman that would be a minimum of 1500.

The are other methods to arrive at a more accurate level of the base energy level that you need but the above is a good rough guide.

I hope this is helpfull. Keep posting if you have more questions. the people on this board have a wealth of experience in the Low carb way of eating.

I don't know what you're talking about...those of us who eat low-carb DO NOT try to get into "starvation mode". Unless you are talking about ketosis, but that isn't starvation by any means. All "starvation mode" is going to get you is fatter because you can't sustain that very long, and then you'll binge, and you'll be back where you started and then some.
Buy yourself a few good books on low-carb eating, read them, and then come back and ask all the questions you want about hints/help/support for this way of life.

rustpot--thank you for the information! This thread was also posted in the Atkins forum where I responded with some questions of my own. If you could look over my post and direct me to where I can get the answers I would be very greatful!

Good Morning,

I apologize if my post sounded as if I were looking to get into starvation mode or if I gave the impression (by not listing anything in my profile) that I was looking for some unhealthy way to accomplish weight loss.

The reason I am looking for how long it would take to get into starvation mode is because I am afraid that is why I am not able to lose last 20 lb.

I have been at a stall for over 6 month (I have lost pretty good amount on Atkins), but now I can’t get rid off these 20 lbs.

I thought that may be I was in starvation mode and that is why I was not able to lose the weight. I decided to up my calories and see if it helps, well, I gained 10 lbs.

I am so frustrated, I could cry, I have done so for too long, I want to be able to beat this.

I have addressed all the issues commonly present (hidden carbs, water intake, medical conditions, too much protein, not enough fat, exercise) nothing is helping.

Now, I am heavier than I was just 6 month ago and all I was trying to do is lose last 20lbs.

I really do think it has to do with calorie intake, but I honestly can’t figure it out, I try to mix up days of lower calorie and higher calorie to keep from getting into starvation mode.

What I am looking for is any info that would explain how to avoid getting into starvation mode and not gain wait, I just want to lose (not gain).

I have read some of the low carb publications (Atkins, CAD, ProteinPower, Other misc low carb books) and many posts on this board, but have not been able to find any reference on how long (2 days, 3 days, 2 weeks will it take for your body to get into starvation mode, which I want to avoid, since it seams that it is what I happening to my body and as soon as I up my calories I gain).

So what I am thinking of doing is keeping cal lower ( now I do not mean 500 or so but around 1200) or so for a few days, but not long enough to get in starvation mode and then upping it a bit and than back to lower. There must be something I can do to get those pounds off.

If anyone has any suggestions regarding starvation mode avoidance or other helpful info, please post.

I greatly appreciate any help and apologize that I was not very clear in my first post.

Thank you to anyone who will post.

although I'm just beginning, I was also curious about this because my calories vary from 1200-1500 (pre-exercise which takes 150-300 more cal out) .

I felt that 1200 was on the low side but couldn't eat anything more on those days. So I felt that if I needed to eat to keep out of starvation mode, I would, but if 1200/day is ok (before subtracting exercise) then I'll leave it as is.

Sorry about your long stall - how frustrating! A couple of questions: Is your original goal weight a realistic weight for your height and age? It's possible that the reason you couldn't lose that last twenty pounds is that, like it or not, you were at your ideal body weight. Second question - have you been tested for possible thyroid disfunction? I believe this becomes more common as we grow older, maybe it happened as you were losing, even though not as a result of it.

Yes, my goal weight is very realistic and I have been at that weight and lower before. I wore pants many sizes smaller before and only less than 3 years ago, I have not aged that much in three years.

There are no medical conditions present that should keep me from losing this weight, I addressed several areas and have come up as healthy as a horse.


I have been reading up on CKD or TKD as a possibility to shake things up.

I have even considered just going low fat and seeing what that does ( I just can’t stand the thought of that though after being an Atkins fan for so long).

I even thought about just going low cal and low fat, but that probably is not going to help either.

I am sorry to complain, I am so frustrated and just can’t imagine what could possible I can try yet.

Please some one share your ideas on my problem, I just can’t imagine that being 25lb overweight is what my body should and wants to be, there must be something I can do to be at least fit, I am not looking for skinny, I just want to wear the clothing I wore 2.5 0 3 years ago.

Thank you for any help.

Please know I greatly appreciate anything that onyone think might help.

Hello again.

I do understand your dilemma now that you have explained a little more.

It is a cruel fact of dieting that we lose 80% of weight in about 20% of the time and the last 20% takes about 80% of the elapsed time!

Your frustration is around the fact that you have for whatever reason..stalled. The problem is that you have more or less concluded that a severe restriction in calorie intake is the only solution.

You say that you upped the calories and gained weight. What did you do to up the calories? The only way that you would gain fat is by increasing carbohydrate. There will be short trerm fluctuations in water weight that may result from a number of sources.

Atkins suggests the fat fast for your situation and that is 1000 calories. When you look at it, it really is not much food at all.

The research from Britain shows that you could do this for a week without any real problem. Most do not get past about day three as it is so deadly dull that you will get sick of the sight of nuts and cream cheese.

BUT... there is another way.. a more healthy way.....burn more calories by greater exercise...Whatever you are doing now double it ....and drink more water.

As far as continuing with Low carb... You really have no choice. Carbohydrate will make you gain weight. An extra slice of ham will not.

Visit the stalls and plateux section of this forum and you will find you are not alone. I went months without losing anything and our stories are similar. I am struggling with the last 25 pounds. I put on 10m pounds in the months leading up to and around Christmas. I don't believe that I ate more than I normally do. It was the festive cakes and the festive drink and the pastries that did me in.

eating an extra slice of ham or non carb food wont add fat to your body in any form?

I was trying to make what is quite a complex metabolic process as easy as I could but you are right it is not "totally" true.

Ham is protein and fat. The creation of fat in our bodies...the storage mechanism and the burning of fat for energy release are affected by two different hormones..Insulin and Glucagon. They act in different ways.

When we eat, insulin drives our metabolism to store the excess food energy for use later. When later comes ....Glucagon drives the metabolism the other way, letting us burn our stored fat for everyday needs.

The chief priority of Insulin (it has other reasons to be) is to keep blood sugar from rising to high. Glucagon on the other hand is there to prevent blood sugar from falling to low.

This little game that the two hormones play with each other is vital. Without either one we would literally be dead within days.
If a diabetic does not get insulin they will die. Coma will be in hours and death is inevitable.

Without Glucagon, the brain would soon begin to dsyfunction and then too death will follow.

Now these two hormones get along quite nicely together and we cannot change our Insulin and glucagon directly. There is no such thing as Insulin or Glucagon pills. They would be destroyed in the digestive system. Diabetics have to inject insulin in the blood stream.

The only way that we can affect the production of insulin is to change our blood sugar level by ingestion. Take a spoon of sugar or mollasses and blood sugar will climb within minutes.

To affect glucagon, with out artificially lowering blood sugar by the injection of insulin. just eat nothing for a few hours... let the blood sugar decline naturally until the the pancreas gets stimulated to produce Glucagon.

Now why am I banging on about this to explain why the extra slice of ham is less likely to make you fat than say an extra slice of bread. It has nothing to do with the calories. For the sake of my point let us assume that we eat the same caloric content of ham as bread. A ham sandwich if you like And then we should examine how we can affect the hormones by eating either the ham or the bread or both together.

In the battle of the hormones and their effect of our fat cells and our cholesterol levels you can see that Insulin is the bad guy and Glucagon is the good guy in the white hat!

I hope you are still with me because I am getting to the point. Insulin does a number of things..it converts glucose and protein to fat. Glucagon converts protein and body fat to glucose.

Insulin removes fat from blood and moves it to fat cells. Incidently fat cells do not get eliminated when we lose "fat" by dieting ,they just get smaller. But I digress.

Glucagon converts dietary fat to ketones and sends them for stotrage in tissues. it also releases fat from fat cells for use as energy. It also reduces cholesterol.

This then is the the key to what is going on and why we are less concerned with calories. Through experimentation science now nows what effect food has on Insulin and Glucagon.

Protein raises Insulin a little and raises Glucagon a little

Carbohydrate raise Insulin a lot and has no change to Glucagon

Fat... Does not do anything..it does not exist as far as insulin is concerned.This is the problem with low fat products. When they take the fat out of chips you are are left with a greater amount of Carb.

High carb and low protein together, incredibly, raises insulin higher than carb alone and raises glucagon less than protein alone. Moral: Take the burger out of the bun.

So... I think it is therefore Ok to say that the extra slice of ham is unlikely to have a significant impact on Insulin. Is therfore unlikely to trigger the fat storage system. The slice of bread?...... feed it to the ducks

This also explains why Atkins suggests the fat fast which is eating food that is more than 80% fat. It is as neutral to insulin as you can get. However there is only so much fat that we can take in that type of quantity. We can only do it for small bursts.

Just to correct your typo above Rusty, the fat fast contains 1000 calories, not 100. Typical fat fasts contain cream cheese and macademia nuts, not cottage cheese.

I agree with the rest that you have said.

Some other things you may need to consider is what you are eating and what they are made of, like processed foods for example. A bar may say that it only has 2 carbs but for some people sugar alcohols and glycerine act like real carbs in their body. Another culprit is salt. People eating deli meats, pepperoni, cheese and such will retain water to deal with the extra salt.

Eating too many calories can make people gain as well as eating too few calories. The benefit of low carbing is that you can eat until satisfied and not be hungry. Protein and fat are essentially self-limiting in that there is only so much of it that you can eat. Especially fat, but excess protein does turn to glucagon (if we are spelling it right, it doesn't look right to me at the moment).

We must eat to lose; we must eat fat to lose fat.

The 10-12 calorie per pound has been bantered around, both as 10-12 your current weight and 10-12 your goal weight. Atkins says not to count calories, to eat until you are satisfied, but not stuffed and that typically a woman can eat 1800 calories a day and a man 2000 calories a day and still lose.

Probably the best thing to help you start losing is to go back to the lowest level of carbs on your plan, eat natural foods with little processing, add in natural fats like butter and olive oil, limit cheese and get most of your carbs from green vegetables and eat adaquate protein.

Beth

Beth thanks. Typos corrected.

Isn't it just the way, when you hit the submit button... thats when you see the mistooks

Thank you for the posts.

I have done the following over the past 6 month to try to deal with the stall and it has not worked. I imagine my tone sounds very frustrated and I am, after doing so much to adjust things and try everything that I could possible come across, I end up heavier that I was 6 month ago. I feel that I should just give up, but I hate to accept that this is the way thing should be.

- cut out all processed foods
- do not use any sugar free bars, candies or shakes
- do not use low carb substitutes (LC pastas, breads, cereal)
- frink 150-200 oz of water
- do not drink any soda or any other beverages other than water (may one diet rite a month)
- take all vitamins (atkins approved)
- do very good amount of exercise both cardio and strengths training around 5 times a week
- have tried going down to 20 carbs (only from good low carb veggies)
- then tried upping carbs as specified in atkins literature
- I do test for ketosis and most of the time I am in ketosis, but no loss but gain lately
- have tried upping calories (thinking it was starvation mode), but gained
- have tried lowering calories (thinking I am eating too much), but no help
- have added more fat in the diet, but keeping carbs at 20, no help
- tried fat fast twice, no help, defiantly get in ketosis, but do not lose weights permanently, as soon as I return to higher calories I gain
- do not eat much cheese (about a table spoon shredded once in a while (once a week) with eggs)


I agree that a piece of toast is more likely to make someone gain weight than a piece of ham ( or any meat), but in my case no matter what I eat, even with restriction of carbs 20 a day, I gain.

Also, if you eat access calories, no matter what they are and even if your carbs are very low (0-20grams) you will still gain weight. Fat does get stored if it is consumed above needed caloric intake even if there are no carbs of insulin. It does not get stored at 100% rate as carbohydrates or at reduced rate as protein, but at a much lower rate, but the fact is it does get stored no matter what if it is axcess.

I know that this dilemma I have is quite an annoyance and you guys are probably tired of me keep posting, but I am extremely frustrated and have read nearly every post on this site (may different forums), but I have not been able to find info on how quickly starvation mode kicks in and how to be able to avoid it. I do think that is what my problem is and I am not willing to give up yet, not after fighting for 6 month and giving everything up.

Any ideas, anyone????
Thank you for your time.

Dang me, I'd be banging my head against a wall if I were in your situation. Sounds like you've explored just about every avenue out there. There's something else you might want to try, I've seen a few posts about this lately and there's a woman who set up a link to her website about it. It's called the Stillman diet and is almost exclusively protein with almost no fat or carbs. Apparently it's quite bland and not much fun, but this woman swears she lost over a hundred pounds in eight months doing it, so it's at least worth checking out. The post I'm thinking of was last week, so you might scroll back or else just search on Stillman in the support forum. Good luck.