As I understand it, the incretin effect causes high insulin when fat/carbs are combined e.g. see the 'Fat and Carbs: A Deadly Duo' section in this edition of Dr Eades Arrow:
https://arrow.proteinpower.com/p/the-arrow-148
There's also been some info in later editions.

On a different thread, JEY100 posted that she was eating 30-40% fat and 20-30% carb which could possibly be in the incretin zone.

My open question is, at what level of fat/carbs is this effect a problem?

(I eat approx 60g carb a day and skip breakfast so I'm starting to think how to separate my meals in to Carb/LF/Protein and LCHF/Protein).

Dr Eades take home message to avoid highly processed foods and the combo of fat and carbs is the same as Dr Naiman, Marty Kendall's Optimising Nutrition, and the less well known, Cian Foley "Don't Eat for Winter" (in autumn, acorns and other nuts have that fat/carb combo). https://optimisingnutrition.com/esc...nfinite-autumn/

For me, a Ketogenic Diet was not the solution, the fat supplies too much energy for a less active older woman, and VLC reduces micronutrients and fiber. But if you are trying to gain weight, or have a goal of managing your natural insulin, different diet %s may work. Marty Kendall is managing the CGM's and insulin pump for two family members with T1 Diabetes, so he has more insight. Are you trying to gain muscle now?

I don’t know much about the incretin homones, but believe I am producing GLP-1 naturally through my food choices. This article is over year old but still relevant. How to Increase GLP-1 Naturally: Top Foods and Tips
https://optimisingnutrition.com/inc...lp-1-naturally/


Protein percentage is the most important food to Maximize my Satiety. But Vitamins, Minerals, and essential fatty acids also support GLP-1 that lowers hunger and has allowed weight loss/maintenance to be easier than it was on very low carb/keto. I follow a Nutrient Dense food list, not a particular level or % of fat and carbs. Nutrient Dense Foods for a Balanced, Healthy Diet
https://optimisingnutrition.com/nutrient-dense-foods-2/

Even better, consider foods from a Satiety Per Calorie approach.
The Most Satiating Foods: Eat Less and Feel Fuller
https://optimisingnutrition.com/most-satiating-foods/

I'm 51 and my weight is ok so my main aim is health and that includes maintaining or adding muscle but it's not clear to me why you ask, are carbs required for muscle growth?

For want of anything better, I am currently sort of following Dr Ede's Quiet Paleo with around 60 carbs (her bottom limit) to avoid keto which I tried, but it didn't have any noticeable difference. I also avoid spinach (oxalates) and minimise some high fermentables (Broc, cauli, apple, banana etc. per Dr Pimental's book) to control my nocturnal mouth reflux. I eat a wide range of animal products that I believe provide most of my nutrients.

To get back on topic, my question is, if I eat 60g carbs in one meal, how much fat can be included before insulin is unhealthily raised by the incretin effect. Conversely, if I eat a high fat meal, how many carbs can be included.

I doubt science has an answer yet, and like all things, it's probably complicated by individual variance, insulin resistance, type of carbs/fat etc.

Safest thing for now is to minimise fat or carb per meal.

I was asking because you are in a "healthy BMi" range but on the light side for a man. Thought you might be an endurance athlete who wanted to also add some muscle?
I do not watch my carb and fat intake closely except when doing short challenge courses, and I do think it would be individual.
Dr Naiman leans to Protein and Fat for the first meal, and Protein and Carbs for second (vegetables, starchy tubers, his PP ice cream, popcorn after dinner, etc.) I will occasionally have a baked potato with steak that's 60g carbs..nutritious and satiating. Balanced with other foods..it doesn’t impact my goals.

Btw, at 52, Ted is 5 ‘ 10” 165 pounds, "ideal" according to the body weight formula he uses…but these formulas are only guidelines, also used to estimate protein grams. https://tednaiman.com/
As if the Diet Wars don’t have enough differences to argue about, Dr Edes adding three totally new versions of diets muddied the water further. I support her work on nutrition for psychiatric disorders, those parts of her book were interesting, but the 3 new diets described were disorganized with bullet point lists, charts, do this/avoid that/with exceptions. I don’t eat paleo, keto or carnivore anymore, so no need of quiet versions.

I am a bit too thin for my wife/mam, but I don't do any endurance, just some weights to keep my muscles in shape. It would be interesting to know what Ted's extra 25 lbs are composed of.

Once I'd transcribed Ede's lists, it was much easier to see what I could eat - I think her Quiet Paleo is a good starting diet for most people with any sort of issue and then they can add/remove as needed.

Dr. Eades replied to my question:

Me: Is there a level of carb intake at which fat burning doesn't occur? Also, is there any data on the amount of carbs in a high fat meal that would cause an unhealthy insulin increase from the incretin effect?

Michael Eades: It's not so much the carb intake as it is what that carb does to insulin levels. If you're insulin sensitive, consuming a bit of carb drives insulin levels up long enough to dispose of the carb, mainly by driving it into muscle. Then insulin quickly drops down and fat burning resumes. If you're insulin resistant, the opposite happens. Insulin goes up and stays up for much longer. If you don't dose with more carbs, insulin ultimately comes back down, and you start burning fat again. But even then insulin never gets down to the level it does in non-insulin-resistant people.

Same with the incretin effect and carbs. People who are thin and insulin sensitive don't have the exaggerated response that those do who are insulin resistant. In those insulin resistant folks, eating carbs and fat provokes a much higher incretin effect.

The take home message here is to develop and maintain your insulin sensitivity.

https://arrow.proteinpower.com/p/arrow-188#comments

Hi Dan, thanks for reaching out to Dr Eades…good explanation.

Tap the TedNaiman.com link and photos on the landing page would indicate that extra 25 pounds is all muscle. Definition of "ripped and shredded" in my book.
He had his annual physical in April:

4.6% A1 c would indicate he is very insulin sensitive, and has said in podcasts his Fasting insulin is usually 1-2.

Ted Naiman commenting on the "biohacks" he uses for his results


This saves me time when listening to podcasts…I skip all ads, supporter promos and listen at 1.5 speed.
As a doctor in a major medical system, his annual physical includes basics.