One of the major advantages of the low carb diet is that you can eat until you are no longer hungry. Compare this to a low-fat diet where you always crave for more food. You cannot, however, eat unlimited amounts. Let's just look at the pure "physics" of calories expenditure:

A healthy adult in their 30's will burn approximately 2000-3000 cals / day (the upper limit for males, the lower limit for females). If all of this comes from fat, we can theoretically burn 222 - 333 grams of fat / day (1 g fat 9 calories). In ketosis, fat is converted to ketones. As in all conversion processes, friction (or inefficiency) is introduced. 1 gram of ketones contain 7 calories. Subsequently, using the data above, in ketosis we can theoretically burn 285 - 429 grams of fat / day.

From this point on, the actual fat burnt is the difference between this theoretical value and actual grams of fat consumed. I know of people consuling 1 kg (2 lb) of cheese per day. This is approximately 300 - 400 g fat. These people will not loose anything.

Too little fat will also be a problem. If fat intake is sub-optimal, the body will break down three of the nine essential amino acids stored in the muscle into glucos. The result is that muscle is used instead of fat. In my experience, working with over 100 people from all walks of life, optimum fat intake is 70% of the theoretical maximum, 200 - 300 grams fat / day. This will allow for a fatloss of 85 - 129 grams of body fat/day, 595 - 903 grams bodyfat / week. Exercise will seriously accelerate this.

Lastly, a properly managed ketosis will reduce or eliminate hunger. The key is to eat ONLY until you are no longer hungry, not until you are full. This will gradually reduce the urge to eat. Most of the people I work with now have to remember to eat.

I completely agree. It's easy to get into the habit of overeating on this WOE. If you have a lot to lose you can get away with it at first but as you near goal you'll have to break that habit. This does NOT mean going hungry by any means, just paying attention to when your brain tells you you're satisfied.

Another thing I find absolutely essential (although others may disagree) is not eating anything after dinner. That means not even a chicken wing! If you eat until you're satisfied at dinner you shouldn't experience actual hunger later on, it's probably just boredom and habit that makes you open the fridge.

Janis

Your statement is valid, but you must take into account that most people who are new to this WOE are coming off low fat diets where calories were severely restricted. Overeating is not their most common problem, undereating is. This is why it is essential when starting out that calories not be restricted. Wrapping your brain around the idea that you should eat more than 1200 calories is quite foreign and difficult for many. The fine tweaking between what you eat and what you burn should come later, once results have been seen and you are comfortable with this WOL.

My 2 cents,
Nat

Yes indeed, the concept of eating more than 1200 cals per day is a dream come true for people coming off the low-fat diet. Psychologically your point is very important.

Another important psychological aspect is results! I meet many people who have bought the Atkins book but get very few results, which is naturally very demoralising.

My initial point was about eating the right amount of fat, and I think this is a very important point. Another important point is to eat the right amount of PROTEIN. Three of the essential amino acids in protein can be converted to glucose, which can slow down fat loss and even prevent ketosis. This is likely to take place if the protein intake is too large.

Many sources of food that are high in fat are also high in protein. Cheese is a good example. 1 lb of cheese contains approximately 150 grams of fat and 150 grams of protein. The RDA for protein is 0.4 grams per lb bodyweight. For the average (non exercising) female this equates to 50 grams, and for the average male 63 grams. Although I believe these quantities are too low, fact is that there is a limit to how much protein we need, and excess protein will be converted into glucose.

Almost without exception, the people I work with who don't show results eat too much protein. When protein intake is decreased results increase.

In summary, I don't believe we should encourage over-eating on the ketogenic diet. Some people show great results even when bending the rules quite a lot. One guy I help (280 lb) can eat two slices of pizza and a few hundred grams of cashew nuts in the evening and still stay in ketosis (and still lose weight). Most people can't, and if you are losing less than 1 lb of fat (emphasis on fat, not weight) a week, I suggest that analysing and modifying the fat and protein intake will be highly beneficial.

Wow Jesper - Went to your web site and you look great. I think it may be a bit unfair of you to be posting such specific goals. You have 8% body fat - I would venture to say the majority of us are working on different percentages. Why the dismay? Just learning NOT to eat carbs is a jump for me...the %age of fat/protein can wait until I make it past the 14 days.
Thanks for the info.

Where is that web-site ?

Just click the little "www" icon below his post, and it can also be found by clicking on profile.

Wa'il

To clarify; neither Atkins nor the Eades (Protein Power) recommend "over eating" but rather "eating until you are no longer hungry". In PP a formula is given to figure out your minimum protein requirements. (.6g per pound of lean body mass up to .9g per pound of lean body mass. The number you use relates directly to your activity level) . The Eades maintain (Protein Power FAQ ) that when carbohydrates are restricted excess protein is not converted to glucose, the Amer. Journal of Physiology (Endocrinology and Metabolism) seems to agree with them:



I appreciate your possition, however most people looking for help and information on this board are trying to overcome the idea that eating fat, protein and more than 1200 calories is bad for them; the fine tweaking of the percentages and ratios is something that should happen further down the line. But I am repeating myself here

Nat

Nat,

Most people I help are "normal" people that may exercise 2-3 times / week or not at all. Most of them fall within the 20-30% bodyfat range. About a third of these, or some 40 people, are people who bought the Atkins book. Apart from the initial weight loss (from water due to glycogen and sodium discharge) they showed insignificant fat loss gains.

I am sure you agree that we are all different. As mentioned in the second posting by me in this thread, some people can easier maintain ketosis than others. Some people are very sensitive to glucose and struggle to maintain ketosis. In these cases, my experience shows that unless you monitor your food intake you will not reap the benefits.

You talk about helping. Isn't this to help? The 40 or so people I mentioned earlier would have given up the Atkins diet if it wasn't for my assistance. If you are still doubtful about introducing any kind of rigour into your ketogenic diet if you don't show results, I am more than happy to point them to this forum to share their experiences.

In terms of quoting research, you must be VERY careful. It is true that in most circumstances the body converts protein into fatty acids. The quoted text talks about "carb restriction". What does this mean? The modern diet prescribes that 65-75% of your calories should come from carbs. On a 2000 BMR this is 1300-1500 cals, or 325 - 375 grams of carbs per day. Most doctors would call 1/2 of this amount a carb-restricted diet. On 162.5 grams of carbs ketosis would be unobtainable, as there would be abundant of glucose available. Yes, the quoted text is correct, excess protein in this scenario will largely convert to fatty acids.

But the ketogenic diet is different. Here we have a SHORTAGE of glucose. Very little research exists on this subject (ie. excess protein consumption under ketogenic circumstances) but well respected ketogenic practitioners (like Dan Duchaine to mention one) have observed the conversion of excess protein into glucose under ketosis. My own research, using 12 people in ketosis, indicates that keeping all other factors constant, excess protein increases glucose level (up to a point that if a very excessive amount of protein is consumed the ketosis is interrupted).

I think one point of disagreement between us is what keeps people motivated (and perhaps their are some cultural differences underpinning this). Although I do (wholly) agree that we must get away from the "starvation" mentality of the low-fat diets, I do believe that a ketogenic diet must also show RESULTS. If these results are not forthcoming, people will lose motivation and give up.

I can only interpret your objections to my posts that either you believe that the results are less important, or you believe that everyone that tries the ketogenic diet will automatically get the desired results. My experience points to the opposite.

This is sooo true- in fact that's ME .. I've found it helpful to eat dinner an hour or so later than normal ..e.g 7pm instead of 6pm, or sleep early. Doing both may also be worth a try.

My comments were not objections they were a difference of opinion, coming from a different point of view.




It seems that you missed the part about "further down the line" and not restricting calories "when starting out", which was the point I was making. I read the journals of the members who post here, a majority of the ones experiencing stalls are not eating enough. That's not enough fat, not enough protein and not enough calories. Some are not eating enough carbs. Convincing them of that is difficult enough w/o adding "oh by the way, don't eat too much protein or you wont lose as fast". This can be done later once LC is a WOL or "further down the line."

Nat

hello Natrushka:

I have not been on the Atkins long and I thought I had read it pretty well. Every diet has been a struggle for me but I thought this would be different. I must confess that the debate on this thread has worried me considerably.

I was under the impression that I could eat what I wanted, following the guidelines, until my carb count was 20g ( I am still on Induction). Being as big as I am I sure can eat! But I have never gone over my 20g. I am losing weight, but are people recommending that I also have to count calories and protien / fat ratios to improve my weight loss.

I do not understand much of what the fat / protein ratios is about. I certainly do not remember reading about it in Atkins - but I shall go back to the book again and see if I missed something in my keeness to start the plan. But I am quite confussed now. I thought I had at last found a great diet. but now I wonder if that is the case.

I am not an expert, and I hope Nat sees this and also responds.

What I've seen here is that in general, initial results seem to be greater when you start with more to lose. A person seeking to lose 10 or 15 lbs is not likely to lose it all during induction, although someone seeking to lose 100 lbs could lose as much as 10 or 15 lbs during induction.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. This plan is working for you and you still have a ways to go to reach your goal.

I believe that Jasper's point is that as you get close to your goal (or what you should weigh), your loss slows. If you've read any journals, people have reported this very phenomenon. AT THIS POINT, they may need to tweak their eating plan to continue to lose until they are where they want to be (or where their body wants them to be). This might involve restricting calories.

The rule of thumb I've seen here is that one should try to consume 10 to 12 times his/her body weight in calories each day. If you eat too little, your body will think you're starving it and hang on hard to every little fat cell. If you start this WOE at 200 lbs, that translates to about 2000 calories each day. After you've lost weight, say you're down to 150, you might need to reduce calories to 1500 per day to continue to lose at a similar rate.

(I know I said 10 or 12 time your weight, but I can't do "12" in my head so I'm going with the "10 times".)

The cool thing about this plan is that you're not going to feel particularly hungry eating 2000 calories (or 1500 calories) each day because protein and fat are so filling. I've noticed that I just don't feel hungry. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't feel like putting something in my mouth and chewing it! There's a difference. We all know there's a difference.

Are you using Fitday.com to record your eating? If you're concerned about your intake, sign up and use it to keep a food journal. It's really great in terms of calculating your percentages so you can see your CARB intake, which is your primary concern. You're restricting carbs so that your body will burn its fat stores instead of the instant energy that carbs provide. Anyway, you may be surprised at the numbers you get.

I hope I haven't confused the issue, here. Good luck!

Sticki, if things are working for you then you're following the plan. Are you happy? Do you feel good? Are you eating when you're hungry? are you losing? If you answered yes, then there is nothing for you to worry about. Jesper's point was that some people are not doing as well as you are; they are encountering problems very early on in which ever program they are following. As goodacre pointed out when you get closer to your goal, or if you experience a true stall (true stall = 6 weeks with No weight loss and No inches lost) you can revisit the quantities and qualities of food you are eating. If everything is going smoothly for you then keep counting your carbs, drinking your water, exercising, and count calories ONLY with the intention of eating enough food (10 to 12 times your body weight). The suggestion to check out fitday.com is a great one. Use fitday not in a restrictive sense, but as a tool to help you understand what you're eating and how different levels of calories make your WOE work for you.

And above all, stop worrying

Nat

Thanks for your speedy response - I feel relieved and once again happy that I am on a diet!

I actually started on September 15th and weighed 245 (I have just found the 100+ thread) I got down to 232 but lost an aunty and turned to mash and crumble etc...

I have been back on induction for 4 days and, yes I do feel better and of course this site has inspired me to keep going. I WILL REACH MY GOAL.

I don't use fitday but a programme called Dietpower. This programme calculates everything right down to my vitamin and mineral intake. Using it to give me an average it states that my average calorie intake is 2333 calories which is split by FAT at 70%: PROTEIN at 27% and CARBS at 3% and my sugar is 0.11 grams per day.

I will visit fitday and see what that comes up with too! I guess I should also start exercising but I get to embarrassed.

Thanks for helping a new comer - living in England sucks for low-carb info and as I have no support at home so this site has become a true friend. Through this site I even managed to find a home delivery service for low carb goodies.

thank you once again