I am curious about any data or experience taking pure glucose (used for diabetics) to add fuel without triggering an insulin response.

After reading most of the The Ketogenic Book, I learned about this technique which I thought was quite novel. (I highly reccomedn this book to all interested ketosis dieters) We all know insulin (specialy too much of it) is our biggest enemy. Of course this is within reason. Without insulin we would be diabetic, but too much insulin by all accounts seems to be the cause of insulin resistance and hunger. (this combination seems to be the vicious one / two punch to weight gain) When insulin is plentiful in the blood stream body fat can not be released to be used for fuel, hence the reason I believe very low carb eating has lead to tremendous weight loss for me in the past.

What I want to experiment with, to lessen the burden that LC eating does to me, is to consume a good portion of my carbs in the form of glucose in small doses throughout the day and specially before and after a work out. I am hoping this will keep me in ketosis as pure glucose is the simplest form of sugar and will go directly into the cells to be burned, with no help from insulin or other enjzymes. Of course one can not take too much glucose or there would probably be some consequences. At the bear min. it would be stored in the liver as glycogen, which would end the state of Ketosis. It would be wonderful to experience continual ketosis (weight loss) while having sufficient carbs to feel very energetic, specially to fuel work outs. Of course if this works, it would make a great maintenance program also.

Any comments or suggestions about my concept would be appreciated. Thank you all in advance.

Jerry, using pure glucose before or after a workout is the basis of the TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) which you can read more about in the CKD / BodyOpus forum. Having read The Ketogenic Diet you'd be familiar with the uses of insulin around a workout; glucose when not engaging in exercise would be used differently.

My understanding from having done a CKD is that regardless of when you consume glucose (or glucose polymers such as dextrose or maltodextrin) you will experience an insulin spike. Glucose is the simplest form of sugar and it causes a very large release of insulin (comparatively speaking) but this release is treated differently by the body when exercise is about to be performed or has taken place. Insulin is what drives the glucose into your muscle cells; it will be present when you consume the glucose regardless of exercise or not. Exercise, especially intense exercise, causes muscle glycogen to be used for fuel (if you're following the CKD the later in the week you progress the more glycogen has been used until you reach the final day and perform a depletion workout, emptying the cells as much as possible). Eating glucose post workout will help replentish those stores - insulin will be used to help accomplish this.

I suspect that if you experiemented with this you'd find that your reactions to glucose pre or post workout would be very different than your reactions to using it over the course of your normal day (at least this has been the case for me).

When you say that At the bear min. it would be stored in the liver as glycogen, which would end the state of Ketosis this is true to some extent, but less so with glucose. Fructose is however metabolised by the liver and is stored there as glycogen - the main reason that fructose is not ideal for anyone following either a CKD or a TKD - you want an insulin spike to drive the glucose into the muscle cells and fructose does not do this (hence the reason it has been labled "OK" for diabetics for years).

HTH
Nat

Nat, thank you for the response. So in your opinion, would taking about 75 - 100 grams of glucose per day be advantageous over taking the same in fructose? From your response, I assume you agree with this?

My goal was to take 3 drinks per day of a protein drink, and mix in glucose, about 25 grams per drink. The Protein would reduce the spike, and hopefully keep all the glucose entering my muscles and not stored in my liver as glycogen. I was going to try to stay on the edge, i.e. never introduce more glucose than my muscles and brain were calling for, so I could stay in ketosis while not being so drained from the very low carb approach I have taken in the past. Is this a sensible approach, or am I missing something? Any alternative suggestions?

My goal was to have all my meals in liquid form so I do not have to make food decisions, yet still stay in ketosis and be capable of working out.

Jerry, I'm going to try to tackle this as basically as I can

This would depend on your goals. 100 grams of glucose a day is, IMHO, going to keep you out of ketosis. That doesn't mean you can't lose fat though; it's just counter productive if you're following a LC WOE.

LC is about controling insulin and keeping it stabilized. For the greater part, particularly on this forum, it's also about changing ones WOL (way of life). I understand that it can also be used as a tool; however 3 protein drinks per day containing 75-100 g of glucose isn't something that you can or should do for any length of time (again, my opinion). What puts you, and keeps you, in ketosis is not the protein or the lack of carbs per se it's the FAT.

From reading through your post about Brain Fog I take it that you're following a very low carb diet - something self designed. Keeping carbs very low, eating just protein and little fat isn't fun - it's monotonous and it can lead to problems (such as constipation, loss of minerals and vitamins and eventually it will mess up your hormones) Have you tried following one of the plans, like Protein Power or even a CKD? It's possible to eat a LC diet that's balanced and healthy and still be able to workout intensely while losing fat (PP). Alternatively you can use a short term plan that has been tried and tested and delivers results (CKD).

Glucose, if it were in excess, would not be stored in your liver, it would be stored in your fat cells. Fructose is stored in the liver and used for fuel when needed when it is in excess.

The human body is an amazing thing, it can actually produce glucose when it's needed from substances it finds w/in your body - and it does this on a daily basis. The process is called Gluconeogenesis and it's all part of glucose homeostasis (keeping blood glucose levels stablized). Being drained isn't necessary, you could follow a LC WOE that permits you sufficient carbs to function while allowing you to maintain a positive nitrogen balance resulting in fat loss. I guess what I'm having a hard time with here is figureing out why you'd want to make it this hard on yourself when it doesn't have to be?

Nat

Nat, I am not trying to make this hard on myself, I am trying to find something that works for me at this point in my life.... I have struggled for a long time with all this, and now I am at a point where I just don't have the discipline to put myself much of the misery I get from very LC eating as I have done in the past. I know for everyone this is not the case, but it sure is for me.

It's easier for me to go liquid than eat limited qnty of food. This is my biggest problem, food makes me want to eat more food. Its not all Carb addiction, it also is food addiction and a complulsive behavoir that I possess. Whereas if I drink liquid drinks there is no thinking, and no over eating.

With my workouts, 100 g of carbs a day is not much. I can easily stain in ketosis on this amount. Without the workouts, well, no, I would not remain in ketosis. I have monitored this in the past.

Your statement about fat keeps us in ketosis has me a bit puzzled. I realize eating fat helps ketosis, but I never thought it was the cause of weight loss level of ketosis? Cutting the carbs seems to be the engine that starts and maintains the ketosis process, right? I do plan to put a tablespoon of healthy Omega 3,6,9 oil in my drinks. I was hoping the relativeily low carb, normal to low protein and normal fat, would have a combination of low calories and yet still produce and maintain ketosis with workouts. The drink also will have a heavy dose of mix powder greens to maintain nutrition.

I know this approach may seem odd, but I just have so many issues that I am desperately trying to custom fit something that will work which is tolerable. I have done Protein power before, and Atkins, etc. This I feel is an alternative approach that will remove the food angle and also keep me in the state I need to be in to loose - Ketosis. I felt the glucose was simply a better way to introduce the fuel into my body..... but you are making feel this is not the case? Thanks for your help.

Thanks for clearing up a few things for me, Jerry. Sounds like you've had a pretty rough time of it. A few comments.

Losing by drinking your calories may solve the problem of food choices, but what happens when you reach your goal? The evil thing about food addiction is that food is necessary for life; it's not like other addictions. Suviving on protein shakes and losing weight isn't something that teaches you how to deal with the core problem. I realize it may not be your main concern right now - but if you ignore it, it's only going to come back and bite you on the a$$ later.

Right. Restricting carbs forces the body to use up the stored ones (glycogen) and then switch to burning lipids as it's primary fuel. Without getting into the basics of the biochemistry the state of ketosis is similar to that of starvation with the singular exception being you eat food while in ketosis. This keeps you healthy and strong, unlike what happens when you're truly fasting. Protein is used for energy only when absolutely necessary - your body recognizes it as being more important, it's not just 'fuel'. Carbs are restricted; calories have to come from somewhere. This leaves fat.

If you remember Protein Power you'll remember that fat is the only macronutrient that is metabolically neutral - it causes no change in either insulin or glucagon levels. Fat is what sustains ketosis, and ultimately your health and energy levels. Keeping fat high enough (but not too high) keeps the body from thinking it is truly starving. It keeps your metabolism from dropping. Lowering calories too much will not result in greater fat burning or loss, regardless of what type of dieting you're talking about.

How low are these calories? At 340 lbs 1000 calories is much, much too low, 1200 would be as well, IMHO. You need to sustain your resting metabolic rate in order for the machine you call your body to function (function includes burning fat). Eating too little, coupled with intense exercise will give you results; at first. Then ? You'll hit that wall as your body starts to fight you to hold onto what it perceives to be limited resources (aka the impending famine). This is how our bodies have been programed to survive for centuries.

And it would be; but when you can use fat and remain in ketosis following a LC WOE why use it? It's counter productive.

If I wanted to do what you're proposing I would stick with LC and use the glucose or glucose polymer post or pre workout for the insulin spike to neutralize cortisol and pump up glycogen stores. If I had to drink my meals I'd stick to protein shakes made with some EFA oil, cream, peanut butter, cottage cheese. I'd make soups with avocado and veggies and drink those. I'd ensure that I was getting 12x my lean body mass a day in calories and I'd watch how much exercise I did.

I have pulled a few article for you that I think you might find useful:

Surviving and Thriving on a Low Carb Diet - this is long, but well worth the read.
RMR information
"Positive Nitrogen Balance" - how to determine protein requirements
Exercise Metabolism
Lyle MacDonald on Exercise on a Ketogenic Diet

I hope I haven't added to your confusion, Jerry.
Nat

Nat, thanks for the response....before I comment, I would like to read the articles you offered....

it sounds like you are still confused about what you want to do and you are trying to fashion something yourself.

Have you considered going to a nutritionist? Getting a good one is hard, but a good one will consider everything you are thinking and come up with a personalized solution. And may be able to lead you to a ...a...a...(I forget what they are called), but it is someone who can do all the analyzing you are doing (about physical exertion etc.) and come up with a solution for you also.