oh man there are none so blind as those who will not see. I am a polymer clay artist. . .the bead in my avatar is one of mine. .. anyway. . .we have a seperate room from the normal polymerclaycentral.com delphi forum called the Annex. . .this is for topics that are either off topic of clay or controversial. . .someone had posted that she had an appointment for a pre op conference for gastric bypass surgery.. .of course you KNOW I had to say something. . .well this other woman and I were almost waxing poetic on the problems with sugar and processed food. . .she is a self proclained naturopath and nurse. ..


'It's $$$. They are feeding you and the economy with sugar and manufactored foods.". .Women should never eat anything that starts with MAN-ufactoring.(my quote)



Exactly how I feel too. Simply stopping all sugar foods will help you drop so much it's amazing... not to mention get rid of systemic yeast which is rampant here... but sugar is in almost EVERYTHING processed... and those processed things are so easy and taste so good... people find it hard to not do it.. or just don't wanna take the time to cook properly. Meaning whole foods only. I admire how much you've stuck to this and am thrilled for you how much your health is improving. Wish more people I know would find that kind of dedication to their health!!!

including myself right now ROFL(her reply)"

and then she started saying how Atkins will cause colon cancer

"The bun is bad.

And yeah... white bread is death to the colon. Just make sure you get SOME wheat bread and plenty of fiber from other sources in your diet. My biggest beef with the atkins diet is that you dont' get enough fiber on it to keep your bowels moving three times a day. And that just sets you up for colon cancer big time.

So avoid the bread if you need to, but make sure you move your bowels a MINIMUM of twice a day. Not smally wimpy movements either... if that's all you're getting, then you might be skinny, but colon cancer is no way to go. My uncle just died of it this week and it was horrible. He'd had most of his colon removed for over a year and had a colostomy bag. No one should have to suffer that.

And yes I'll say it.... I fully believe it was his diet and lack of good bowel habits that caused it. Inflammatory statement I know, but that's what I believe."
of course I had to reply

"does romaine lettuce count? How about spring greens. .. cause I generally have a big salad for lunch or dinner. . .and I eat sprouted whole grain bread sometimes and those hard fiber crackers. . .The Atkins WOL tells you you MUST eat 2c of salad a day and 1/2 cup of cooked veggies. . .had half a pear today too. .. some cabbage, red pepper, summer squash, onion believe me things are moving right along. "

and her reply

"my opinion is 1/2c veggies a day isn't nearly enough. But.... my main point in this.. is move those bowels at least 2x a day, preferrably 3. Long as you're doing that, you lessen your chances of colon diseases."

so I restated so I was clearer

"well that should have read 'at least' and it goes with the salad of AT LEAST 2 c. . .betcha I am eatting more veggies than most people in this country INCLUDING VEGITARIANS. . ..plus nuts/seeds are loaded with fiber and I eat those too.

Have you read Atkins? I get a lot of people who think they know the WOL and don't actually read the book. I get to eat fruit. The first two weeks is induction just like South Beach. . .it is to clean out your system. . .but after that you start adding the carbs and just like anything people can add crap or they can add good things. This WOL does not make the right choices for you. . .you have to. . .it does eliminant some of the worst options. . .I have more energy. . .eat A LOT less. . .am losing weight (and I am a member of the triple digits club. . .people who have/had more than 100lbs to lose). . .eatting more whole foods than ever in my life. . .so I don't get what the issue is? If I were to go into a resturant and order chicken breast grilled, a baked potato, a salad, a veggie and a roll. . .this would be okay but if I were to not eat the roll and potato. . .this is unhealthy?

When I am done with the weight loss the items I am adding back in are whole grains and lentils/chilli beans. . .and occational sweet potato. "

and her reply

"I'm really not attacking you or your WOL choice. I'm just stating that in my opinion there are better options than the Atkins. that's solely MY OPINION. And as I said in here before... as long as you're having two to three bowel movements per day you're reducing the risk of colon diseases. I was vegetarian for years, my husband even longer. That's not a healty WOL either. BALANCE is the key, moderation in all things.

I've said it to you before when this issue has come up between us, I think you losing the weight is fantastic. I'm truly very happy you're doing so well on it. I'm not knocking that. You like the atkins way of life, so great! As a naturopath (my degree required intense study of nutrition as well as physiology) I feel atkins is unbalanced and sets people up for colon diseases. That's my take on it, and you dont' have to agree with me. I support you in your right to make your own choice and to stick with it as long as you feel it's working for you. I'd never tell you not to do it.. and I haven't.

But I will continue to voice my concerns about a diet thought up by a man whose job is to develop new and better ways to deliver chemotherapy into the body. And I'm by FAR from the only naturopath who feels this way."

and then I said

"the only reason I am so defensive is not for myself. . .but for others that might be considering a change in their life and with those of us with sensitivity to sugar this is one of the ways to get a 'handle' on it. Induction is the strictist period of this WOL. . .after that you need to check the Glycemic Index of foods to see what might 'set one off'. . .people wonder why 2/3 of America is overweight. . .this has taught me so much about my body and how it works. I am not sure how bowel movement fits in. . .I have several a day. . .BUT when I was nursing my children there were times that they did not have one for several days. . .if you are at all versed in breastfeeding you know that this is perfectly normal. .. and I would think you can't do better than breastmilk for the perfect food."

and she said

"I'm a midwife. I have three kids I nursed exclusively. No supplementing, at least the first two, my third had her own ideas at nine months. The others were nursed for two and a half years, and one and a half years respectively. I'm well versed in breastfeeding and yes that is normal for babies.. it is NOT normal or healthy for adults. At all. You need two at least per day to ward off colon disease. Breastmilk is the perfect food, providing the mom eats right that is. It is digested almost completely which is why babies can go a few days without bowel movements sometimes. You're an adult. You're no longer on breastmilk. If you were, a lack of bowel movements would be ok. But we aren't designed to be on breastmilk forever. And it's a fact, red meat builds in the bowels and doesn't digest completely, chicken and turkey and fish as well, not as badly but it's true. So you HAVE to get rid of that stuff instead of letting it sit in your bowels putrifying and letting the toxins reabsorb into your system. You need to rid yourself of that in a timely manner, which means two or more bowel movements per day. That's how bowels fit in this.

I too am concerned about others wanting to make this their WOL which is why I'm bothering to post. Not everyone is going to believe me, that's fine. But those that have ears to hear will, and that's great. I believe they need to hear BOTH sides of this issue, which is what you and I have done twice now Shown them two sides of this issue. All I want for anyone is to hear us BOTH out.... do research on their own from lots of different sources to get the most information possible... and make the decision after that.

As for sensitivity to sugar. Atkins is not the only way to balance your sugar. So will a moderated healthy diet. Balance. My big beef with Atkins is it's unbalanced. I have a problem with any diet that's meant to be a WOL that is unbalanced.. that includes vegetarianism.

I appreciate the way in which you have approached this discussion with me. I know we disagree on this one completely and the fact that it doesn't degenerate into flaming and hard feelings is great."

and my reply

"I remind my oldest daughter once in a while that we had a conversation about "that it might be time to give up nursing" when she was 31/2 yrs old. I tandem nursed my two daughters. The other two kids were til age two. And I was a La Leche League Mom. . .so I know why they did not have a bowel movement. Although I must admit the first time it happened it scared the pee outta me.

Keep in mind the title of this post is 'gastric by-pass surgery' now by my reckoning. . .Atkins is a few steps preferable to that.

I agree on balance. But many people don't even understand that they are out of balance on just whole foods. Heck I used to eat mostly manufactored items. . .I like boxed potatos better. . .(or liked) Small steps. But if people are being terrified away from something totally natural (and whether you agree with the food being eatten it is not processed or drugs or surgery) that can help in the struggle. . .no wonder they are turning to the knife. At least Dr.s will assure them. Sure nothing is without a downside. Heck you can DIE from drinking too much water. . .you have to drink a heck of a lot of water. . .but it is possible.

So we agree. . .it is good to eliminate sugar especially refined white powder.

it's good to eliminate white flour a useless non nutritive substance that they have to add nutrients back in.

we agree that eatting meat, eggs, fish, chicken is not bad as long as it does not comprise your entire diet.

And I think we agree that eatting large leafy green salads (other than iceburg) is marvelous.

Veggies closest to the way they are grown are the best. . .I don't do canned anymore and there is a difference between a vegatable and a starch (corn, potatos) in how your body and blood sugar react.

Water consumption. . .not diet soda. . .or fruit juice keeps everything running smoothy (in more ways than one.

Points we disagree on?"

and then the final installment in our little saga

"Have to reply to one thing in that.. I'm a naturopath.. I've never in my life scared someone away from eating healthy. My job is to make sure they do eat healthy. If you've been to my forum you know this. If you've seen any post I've ever made in there, you know this. I'm not doing that now. Yes just eating whole foods can make you out of balance, atkins in my opinion is exactly that. out of balance. I will not be changing my mind on that.

Do I think it's better than gastric bypass surgery? Absolutely. There's nothing healthy at all about choosing to dump undigested foods directly into the colon instead of utilizing nature's way of breaking that stuff down so you actually get the nutrition out of it. That surgery is setting you up for failure... you'll be skinny.... no doubt about that, but healthy? Not in my opinion.

I do believe atkins diet is better than gastric bypass. But I dont' believe it is the ONLY way to lose weight. I certainly don't think it's a healthy way. It's fine if you want to use it to get down to your ideal weight, use it for that. But once you are down, you have to get in balance. I feel that simply changing to a balanced way of life is safer than atkins. It will take longer to get to that weight, but so what? You'll create a lifelong habit of eating healthy. Not setting yourself up for colon diseases.

Points we agree on? yes I agree with all those. I do totally resent the statement implying I was scaring anyone away from eating all natural. That's not true at all, and there's a huge difference between all natural, and healthy. MSG is all natural. Is it healthy? not in the least.

So we agree to disagree on the Atkins diet being healthy. We agree it's better than gastric bypass surgery. The rest of your statements I agree with also, it's the amounts and the combining of those we disagree on.

My training is as a naturopathic doctor. Before that it was as a midwife. Before that it was as an herbalist. The combination of these has led me to the opinions I now hold. Your training as a LLL leader and whatever life experience you've had has led you to the opinion you hold. That's fine. As I've said over and over and can't seem to get past.... I'm not tryin to scare anyone off anything.. but to GET ALL THE FACTS first. And on that, I'm done. Before this gets ugly."

Oh man ever want to reach right through the computer and smack someone. Trouble is that polymer clay has a lot of large woman in it's ranks. . .I know I am/was one of them. . .what does she not understand about the cancer word that she is throwing around. I poop just fine thank you. redawn















'

3 times a day???? I've never done that in my life. I have much better ways to spend my time. lol

yeah sort of a grand motherly thing to worry about huh. .. "honey have you been having your BM's lately?" trouble is she is only hearing half of what she is reading. redawn

Well, the fact is that she has NO hard science to support her assertions, including the slam about colon cancer.

Most of her "facts" are just as anecdotal as yours. To each his her own.

Redawn - thanks for the info on your avatar. I have long admired it but could not tell what it was. It's beautiful! As for your friend the naturalist - it sounds like she has found a way of life that is healthy for her. I just can't believe the BMs 3 times a day routine, although I must say, elimination IS important. Thanks for sharing the interesting discussion.

Hmm.. Let me look here, in my cynic's dictionary:
Naturopath n. 1) someone trying to dish medical advice with no credentials. see also quack

Frankly, I'm surprised you bothered to keep the thread going that long.

I think the core of her argument is still somewhat sound, though: give up all carbs, and you'll have colon problems. Something to keep in mind when people accuse Atkinsers of not eating any carbs. We know better.

Who the heck poops three times a day?

Redawn; THREE times? I'd spend my whole life in the bathroom ROFLOL!!!! I personally would rather have 1 a day, have a LIFE, keep my job etc etc.

Too crazy for me.

Julie

Why not tell her there are now hundreds of people who are fascinated by how she manages to go 3 times a day and could we please have her secret! I've only ever gone once a day, low carbing or not!

That woman is full of sh*t!!! Oh wait, she can't be -- she poops three times a day.

My norm is once a day also. Unless I eat a low carb bar. Then watch out!

This woman is obviously on an ego trip. Notice how many times she points out her "training". She's never read the Atkins book; has no idea what we're doing; and no intention of educating herself on it. to her, "It's my way or the highway!"

I know it was pearls before swine. . .but the reason I kept posting was not for her. . .but for those people that would be reading it and going. . .ahh see Atkins=colon cancer. . .one of my earlier posts in the thread said it all

"I wish I could take off this understanding and knowlege this WOL has given me and lend it out for a day or two to friends family both in RW and internet world. . .I feel like I have been given the keys to the kingdom. . .I am standing on top of the mountain shouting"

and here I was shouting and she is saying. . .don't listen to her you could die. . .okay small clue honey WE ALL ARE GOING TO DIE. . .but I guarentee going under the knife to have your stomach size reduced is a way quicker ride on the train to the great beyond.

What's the saying. . .never teach a pig to dance it wastes your time and annoys the pig. redawn

anybody interested in seeing some of my other work go here

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/dn537/homepage.html

BTW, I LOVE to play w/ polymer clay! I even have my own pasta machine for mixing!

I think my boss would be a little upset with me if I were taking a magazine in the bathroom 3 times a day! LOL I too have NEVER gone 3 times a day, unless there were some serious complications going on if you know what I mean.

Wish I could talk to this woman! I see a Naturopath, not for diet but he is my Chiropractor and he has given me supplements before for other things and said that they may constipate me so to make sure that I am going at least "once" did you all get that "once" a day. Toxins and bacteria can seep through your intestinal wall if it is in there too long, which is not good.

Why does she think that only Atkins causes constipation. I got it on WW, isnt that the "balanced diet" she is talking about. We all are smart enough to know that if we aren't having BM's to either eat more fiber or take a fiber supplement. (In my case sometimes I eat a LC candy! LOL)

Also, I have never known a Naturopath that is morbidly obese, which you have to be in order to have GBS. They do not eat processed food at all! This woman seriously has no research to back up any of this. I question that fact that she is a Naturopath. People in chat rooms can be whatever they want to be, Hell, I could be a multi-millionaire to all of you, but in the real world, I just sell airplane parts! My Naturopath is not a vegetarian, but the only dairy he eats is motz cheese everything else is soy. Tell me that that is not "eliminating a food group" Jeeeeeeeesh!!!

Wee

I think this is the one thing that really bothers me: willful ignorance. In my opinion there are very few things more contemptible.

There's another one about the pig: Don't bother wrestling with a pig...it only gets you muddy and the pig enjoys it.


-- Nicky