Well, this thread was so darn long but I still want to add my two cents. This will be a long post as well, but I have been reading your responses and while I find it wonderful you have found optimum health, I do not think you are discussing it in a respectful manner. I believe to some, you are being condescending. I am not going to disagree that this way of eating works perfectly for you. However, I do take offense to you not taking anyones opinion. There might not be appropriate order but I am just writing in none particular, stating what comes to mind next. Your statements are in bold.

As you know, i do not buy into studies anywhere near as much as you do. This is the first rude condescending remark that might have been unintentional but TO ME expresses that you might feel superior to all of us because some of us believe the research and not your opinions.

i use my life experience, and others that i know, because at least with these results, i know they can be trusted to be accurate
How do you know that your experiences are to be trusted? What makes your tests any more accurate than a trained scientist? Your own opinion and how you feel is great FOR YOU. However, you might want to take in to account that many people feel absolutely wonderful on the way of life they have chosen. And you should respect that.

i "empirically" put theories to work. i have first-hand empirical knowledge of what i say.
Would you please give me a run down on how you conducted these studies? How do you ensure there is no bias? How do you ensure that your work is capable of generalizing to the entire population. I see your degree is in computer science. I do not doubt that you are an intelligent person, yet I beg to differ when you speak of being able to conduct scientific research. Were your studies longitudinal? Qualitative? Quantative? Where were they performed. Field, survey, lab, controlled? What were your variables? How did you choose your sample of persons? Was it random? And did you choose enough? Please enlighten me.

Also you could let me know how any of your studies are more accurate than any other study performed. If you state that you did not receive any money to skew your findings, well I will just say this. Money may not be your motivator but perhaps the need for being right and proving LCers wrong, would be yours. You are so adamant in your beliefs (I am not saying that is a bad thing but you seem to bring us down for believing as adamantly as you do) that I do not believe you could conduct a non biased study. With all due respect. And as I am sure all scientists have their biases, that is not the point, my point is for you to realize that your work has no more credibility than anyone else's.

If you do not believe in studies, how do you know your lifestyle is good for you? If you say because of the tests I have had, my stamina and the way I feel, well then you should give that same respect to people who follow LC as they have great tests, more stamina and feel better than they have in years. Your studies on yourself and others (again i would like to know the numbers in your study and how you stopped bias from occurring) are the same way we gauge ourselves, the way we feel.

Who does all these tests you speak of? Doctors? Those evil white coats?





what many of you guys do not seem to understand is that my opinions did not just float into my brain one evening.

The same as our opinions did not float into our brains, you seem to think we are all a bunch of uneducated people who come here for a quick fix. Do you think I do not discuss with collegues, professors, researchers? Do you think I did not consume all the research I could find on this? If that is the case, it is quite arrogant of you to think our intelligence could not possibly reach your level. I am not trying to be rude and maybe neither were you but by saying researchers are not up to your "superior intellect" (pharaphrasing) is rude in and of itself and makes me think you are here to antagonize people and not have an intelligent debate.

i have used many books, some well-educated people in the field to toss around ideas. i then used the scientific method and tested stuff. it has been over a long, long time that these ideas have come to me, not by osmosis.
You base a lot of your "knowledge" on books but do you think these authors pulled these ideas out of the air? No they did research, STUDIES. Studies that you do not agree with. And everyone, unless independently wealthy, need funding to perform such research. So you might as well disagree with everything in the books and articles you have read. Do you realize that the educated people you speak of would have probably done their own studies. And if they haven't, well they are not as educated as you believe them to be since it takes independent study and research to gain a masters level education and beyond. That is when you really know your specialty. I will not argue that they are uneducated, if that is what you are going to come back at me with. I am sure they are extremely educated individuals, but perhaps not to the godly level you promote them as. To the level where you can take their word and dismiss years of research. And as for the scientific method you use, I am patiently awaiting your response.

let me see. i get accused of not using scientific studies, and when i use them against your scientific studies, i get accused of changing my mind. if that is not a catch-22, i don't know what is.
I don't believe anyone chastised you for NOT using studies but for disregarding them as rubbish. Monetary motivation rubbish. Then you site your own. If you could have at least accepted some of the scientific evidence provided for you, then maybe when you suggested your own, you would not have been thought of as a hypocrite. AGAIN it was not that you didn't site scientific studies but because you thought they meant nothing.




You say you do not believe Dr Atkins and other Lc believers because they do not live that way. Where is your proof of that? Dr. Atkins lived his lifestyle. I don't see what you meant to prove with that statement? Who doens't live their research? Dr. Atkins did not feast of spaghetti and potatoes.

Have you ever thought, that Jack Lalane and yourself might just have great genes that enable you to consume vast amounts of carbs and be healthy?

I also want to add that although you think Jack Lalane (sorry for the spelling) is different and did not do this for money, and LIVED his life that way, well he did make money. Wasn't he the one who put his name beside that juicer? Isn't it common knowledge that it is better to eat the fruit in order to get the nutrients, not the juice? Was that a monetary persuasion? Do you drink a lot of juice?



You became quite rude however with this statement.
dr. atkins died at the age of 72, from cardiac arrest. claims that diet was not at fault, but rather a fall on the sidewalk. boy, those sidewalks are meaner than i had imagined.
And you berated others for taking the low road. He did not die from a cardiac arrest. I believe his cardiac arrest was a few months before his fall, if not the year before. Wow took awhile to kill him. But my grandmother had cancer aboout 6 years ago, so when she dies from natural causes, am I to say that it was because of the cancer that has since been elminated from her body? And for further reference, I could be as healthy as a horse, yet drop dead due to history of severe heart disease in my family, I cannnot possibly do anything to stop it. Actually, come to think of it, it is the exact same disease Dr Atkins had his arrest from. Cardio myopathy. Hmm something to think about before you make any further Ignorant comments.

i have supplied overwhelming evidence that your western lc diet, with its carte blanche attitude about saturated fat, allows more saturated fat in the diet, than just about any other diet in the world.
Sorry, but I did not see anything overwhelming and for you to use the word evidence pertaining to what you have said, makes you look even more misinformed. Studies are crap, yet your opinion and your own studies are what the world should follow? I do, however, commend you for being so unwavering in your beliefs.
I think what Kristine meant when she said write a book, was that why waste your time on here when we believe what we believe and you can believe what you want while HELPING people who WANT to hear what you have to say. Nothing to do with money here, since we all know you are against money making, and doctors and studies (books don't count of course )



You even said yourself that we do not live longer because we eat better but because of MEDICAL SCIENCE keeping us alive. So how can you say
...tire of all this comparison to what the caveman used to eat. for some reason, people think that they used to be really healthy 2000 years ago or more. the truth is that one was a grandpa if he made it into his 40's. their lifespan was very short in comparison. they have found egyptian mummies riddled with arthritis, worms, etc. people in the olden days were far from optimum health.
I know we died extremely young, however, you have nothing to prove that it was because they ate a diet high in animal protein. Or otherwise. And if it is the case that we ate vegetarian, your next assumption, then why did we die young?
It is NOT the way we eat

so i suspect they ate vegetation year round, and smaller animals when they could catch them... So if this is the case, they died early because why? They ate carbs and veggies? I don't know what you were trying to get at here. I don't think anyone said the caveman lived forever or were even healthy for that matter, I think they were stating that we are eating what is natural to the human species. And it is only medical science and the abundance of man made things (adequate shelter, better clothing, absence of the huge beasts that use to keep our population down) that keep us going. Although I admit this is pure opinion.

Also, again you SUSPECT, you do not know. So while you will not take claims that they ate animal protien, you stay with your ASSUMPTION that they ate vegetarian? How is this any more correct than what anyone else was saying. Because it was found in a study, does not make it wrong, but because it is what you think, it is right? I am just not comprehending your way of thinking

Near the middle to end of the thread you begin to agree with what everyone has been telling you all along...
but i do not think we are in need of grains in the same way that we are in need of fruits and vegetables.
THEN WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH THE ATKINS PLAN and other LC plans? You have not made that known to any of us. If we do not need grains the same way then what is your point? You do not know how the atkins plan etc work in the maintenance stages. I know you want to have the last word but I don't think that can happen as you pretty much agree with the logistics of the plan, but want to promote YOUR optimal health plan. If we are in agreement, what was your reason for comng here? To convert?

take a look at the Harvard School of Public Health. they are saying a lot of what i have been saying. limit your saturated fat, but make sure that you get lots of the good fats. about the only 2 high-glycemic carbs that i eat are bananas and potatoes. most produce is placed in the low-glycemic table. We do get lots of good fats, perhaps I cannot speak for everyone but they supplements and fat you speak of, well I consume them as well. Again,w hat are you fighting for? You are chanigng your fight. You statrted with carbs are good, eat lots and lots of tem everyday, now you are speaking of good fats? And you now agree that you badivally stick to low glycemic foods. I think you may just like to disagree with others because when it comes down to it, we mostly agree. You can call it CRAP FOOD, but we are looking at the glycemic index for the list. Same thing, different words. You stay away from them as well.

I think we all agree that the standard american diet is horrible, which is why some of us chose to follow this plan where we limit refined carbs and gradually add in whole grains later, all the while eating a variey of veggies and fruit. You do not seem to respect this way of eating, although many times you agree with much of what is stated.

I think a lot of people took offence to what you are saying only because you think your way is the only way. Yes, you agree to some extent to the LC lifestlye but then you backtrack and say you are right and this is the only right way for the majority. How have you determined this (this question being asked yet again)

You question everything but yourself. What makes you so sure that you are right? You question science, doctors, nutritionists. But not yourself. I know you have stated you have a big ego but that will not get you anywhere in life if you do not question yourself at some point. And I am not saying that you are nothing in life but until we can see others points of view (which at times you seem to do but then revert to your old preaching) we will never be true individuals. I wonder why you came here because if you say that you agree that this plan works for some and you definitely agree diebetics and others with problems should use this, what is your motive?

I wish you all the luck and again, I am happy that this is what works for you. For lots of us, this does not work and ends up being the worst thing we have tried in our lifetime. You are an avid exerciser, I wish to remind you this and the majority of the population do not subscribe that that fitness level nor do they wish to. Moderation is wonderful and healthy as well. Good day and good luck