most of the people on the earth would have to starve
I have an open mind to all the Low-Carb information, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't question authority. I went on induction for 2 weeks, keeping my carb limit to 20g or less. It didn't feel right for me. I really don't know exactly what happens with my liver when in a state of ketosis but it didn't feel good to have to drown myself in water to avoid headaches. Who should we believe that the liver is perfectly happy in a state of ketosis? Atkins? Would he really tell us if ketones were not all that good for the liver? Really?
Here's a few things I'm pondering tonight: from http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/highfat.htm Thig guy's article goes on and on about carbs but he does have a few valid points. I know Atkins' is right that we are all eating more sugar and in my opinion too many fries, Cokes, burgers, and fried Chicken. If it were somehow strangely necessary for all mankind to eat Dr. Atkins' diet, most of the people on the earth would have to starve, as it takes 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef. Half the people on earth have an income of less than two dollars a day and could not afford a heavy meat diet. Refined sugar was introduced to Europe during the Middle Ages, and it was one of the few items taxed before 1802 by the US government. Aktins is correct in saying that our use of sugar has greatly increased during this century. White flour was first produced by the Romans, back in 150 BC. The only known problem with white flour is that fiber and many nutrients are also lost in the milling process, which has been partially corrected by enriching the flour. White rice has been the customary rice of China since the time of Confucius, about 500 BC. It has thus been the standard food in Asia for about 2,500 years. Like white flour, it is produced by milling and thus has lost some of the nutrients and fiber of brown rice. It has been enriched to partially correct this problem, but it has not been chemically altered in any way. White rice has not created obese and diabetic Asians. Few people in the US eat large quantities of rice. |
While everyone is entitled to their opinion, that's all this article appears to be...opinion. He doesn't back up any of his statements with references to published studies.
Ketones are known to be bad for the kidneys? What study showed that? Okay...it takes 16 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef. How many pounds of grain does it take to produce range fed beef? How about chicken, turkey, fish or eggs...or even tofu? Funny thing is, I don't really eat more meat on low carb than I did before. What I do eat a lot more of is fat...particulary olive oil (no grain feeding involved there) and flax oil. It's interesting that he makes mention that the Ice Man was found to have been eating grains. The specific grain wasn't mentioned but it was flax (otherwise known as linseed)...a very low carb grain high in omega 3 fatty acids and fiber. It wasn't wheat. Okay...Asians eat rice as a staple of their diets. Did it ever occur to you that most of the poeple in those countries have no concept of what free time is? How about the fact that they walk or ride a bike everywhere they go and that they aren't sitting on their butts all day watching movies and TV? In general, those cultures are far more physically active than western countries are. Those that are physically more active can afford to eat more carbs than those who are not. Rice is also probably the highest carb food that they eat and it's not in the portions that everyone thinks; another good portion of their diets is made up of mostly very low carb vegetables. Another point to ponder is that while they may be slimmer, are they healthier? New studies are showing that's not necessarily the case. They also have a much higher incidence of stomach cancer and strokes. I'd also like to point out that diabetes is growing fastest in Asian countries at the current time. Last, where has anyone said that the majority of the world should be consuming 20 grams of carb or less per day and eating half a cow at one sitting? BTW...the article also misquotes Dr. Atkins on what maintainance levels of carb would be for most people...it's 60 grams, not 40 and many people here maintain on more than that. That's an awful lot of veggies and would also include fruit and some whole grains as well. |
May I point you in the direction to some articles?
Grove's Naive Vegetarian Splendor on the grass Ancient Dietary Wisdom for Tommorrow's Children Know your fats Traditional Diets Ketosis and Liver You may also be interested in Protein Power, they explain more of the science of low carbing and they start at 30 grams of carbs. Happy reading! Beth |
Re: most of the people on the earth would have to starve
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Not true. Milling has only occurred in this century in Asia. Prior to that time, they ate whole rice. In fact, B vitamins are/were made from the portion of the rice that is lost in milling. Before B vitamins were offered as a supplement for rice-eating people, pernicious anemia (caused by lack of B vitamins) was a plague. Sugar Blues - author escapes me at this moment - is an excellent book to read in spite of its age. |
I ran across another interesting thing while I was researching disease statistics for Asian countries. In Asian countries, it's considered a shameful and dishonorable thing to die from heart disease, but an honorable thing to suffer a stroke. Why this is escapes me, but the cause of death because of this is more likely to be reported as "stroke" even when it was likely a heart attack instead to protect the honor of the deceased. Because family honor is so important in these cultures, even doctors are willing to fudge the cause of death in the interest of family honor.
All this has caused me to question whether or not the incidence of heart disease in these cultures is actually higher than reported. Hmmmm.... |
Re: most of the people on the earth would have to starve
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Strangely enough, that is probably why humans left their protein and fat diet, and started agriculture, to avoid starvation. Too many people and not enough prey. Facing 5 million years of evolution, what the Romans did is not relevent. danny |
Re: most of the people on the earth would have to starve
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Well, yeah. That goes without saying, and has absolutely nothing to do with Atkin's plan. The article talks about going back to diets from biblical times and 5,000 years ago, but that's not far enough. The Atkins diet is closer to what humans ate before the invention of agriculture. It's been 15,000 years or so since then and that's a very small step in the time scale of evolution so basically we are still the same animals now, that we were then. However, before agriculture there were not 7 billion of us. So we could feed everyone, most of the time, by just hunting, gathering, and scavenging. Now, bring in agriculture. I think it could be a bit of a chicken or the egg thing, where its not clear if we developed agriculture from the need to feed a growing population of humans, or if we developed argriculture, which made food that much more available and allowed for a rise in population. Regardless, where there was more food, there were more people. An acre of land given to agriculture can support more people than an acre of land given to hunting, gathering and scavenging. Follow that down the line far enough, say 15,000 years, and you have a world population that has vastly exceeded the capacity of the land to support it without agriculture. So yes, today if the entire world switched over to Atkins, most of us might starve. BUT that says nothing about whether we are biologically inclined to eat low-carb. The fact that he attemps to connect these ideas makes me very skeptical of the entire article. If you want more info on stuff like this checkout "Guns, Germs and Steel." Not much on diet in it, but its a great source for looking at the advent, impact, and spread of technology and societies. Quote:
This is economics and says nothing about whether or not we should be eating this way, biologically. Now, if you want to argue the morals of consumption, he may have a point. Quote:
True, unless you are looking into foods that convert quickly to glucose in your body. From a low-fat perspective white flour is merely nutrient-deficient. From a low-carb stand point it might as well be straight glucose. Quote:
Again, change your persepective, and it's not such a good food for a low-carber. The guy who wrote the article appears to be an avid cyclist. Even Atkins says that athletes don't need to be as concerned with carb intake and the more active you are the more carbs you can eat because you will use them up. It seems likely that he doesn' need to diet and is making the mistake that many people do in looking at low-carb as a quick weight loss fix for the readers of his web site. |
Here are two good items to add to this discussion:
Caveman diet Discusses anatomically what we are designed to digest Effect of agriculture Discusses the orgins and effects of agriculture on society, it's a long post but from very knowledgable people. A good read!! Liz |
I am a vegetarian doing ATkins so I don't eat any produced beef at all (or fish or chicken, etc...)
So if the whole world went Atkins to make more food we could just plant lots of soy fields :) |
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2000 years, 5000 years is not early man...2000-5000 years is nothing evolution wise. You need to look muhc further back to the days before the advent of agriculture. Quote:
A BMI below 20 is underweight. A BMI below 18.5 is Anorexic. At least get that right. "Ther heaviest" ??? Their average BMI is 24 according to his chart, which is lower than the average American who eats a diet of 77% plant products. I wonder why. The lowest BMIs on his chart are unhealthy. 18 and 19 are considered underweight by medical standards. I would dare to say that anything below 23 is too thin. 24 BMI (Inuit) is a perfectly healthy weight...neither too fat nor too thin. Quote:
He is perpetuating the misconception that animals must be be fed a diet of grain. In fact, grain is what makes domesticated animals so unnaturally fatty. letting animals range feed would reduce the amount of saturated fat in their meat...If he is so convinced (as seen later in his article) that saturated fat is bad...why does he insist animals must be fed grain ??? Range fed animals require no grain, can be raised on land that is unusable for grain production, and are generally lower in overall fat and higher in the unsaturated fats. If anything this shows that we should stop feeding animals grain. Quote:
A drop in the bucket. Refined Table Sugar is a few hundred years old. Honey is the only refined sugar that existed in caveman days and to quote Cordain's Paleo Diet you had to outrun bees to get it. Obviously it wasn't used too often by the cavemen. Do we know anything about the health of Romans and Egyptians ??? For all we know they may have been fat and prone to heart disease. Again 2000 years is a drop in the bucket. Milk wasn't consumed by cavemen. "Ancient" is more recent...you should be looking at "Pre-historic." Potatoes were used by one tribe of South American indians for 5,000 years...While that is also a drop in the bucket, I should point out that potatoes were not introduced outside that tiny area in the Andes until Spanish explorers brought them back to Europe in the 16th century. It wasn't until the end of the 18th century that most Europeans began eating potatoes. Quote:
That must be in his last book...Becuase I have the 2002 edition and it doesn't say that. Quote:
So, Atkins has made some money...He's made nowhere near as much as the Low-Fat people. And, unlike them, his money goes back into the Atkins Center where they help people. Low-Fat dollars go into corporations pockets. BIG DIFFERENCE. Quote:
Why don't they start by being honest...Dr. Atkins' heart problem was proven to be the result of an infection...not his diet. This page would falsely lead one to believe that it was because he ate alot of fat. This is completely misleading. More to come... |
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That is why we eat alot of protein...As long as we have enough dietary protein, our bodies don't cannabalize muscle tissue. But, low-calorie dieters quite often lose alot of muscle tissue. They don't eat enough protein and thus they lose muscle mass. Quote:
No it doesn't...The kidney problems are the result of not using your kidneys for years (usually from LF dieting) and then having to use them again. It is not Atkins fault that people damaged their kidney by not consuming enough fat and protein. Quote:
Not if they are doing it right. In fact, Dr. Atkins discourages such use of his diet. It is not an on and off diet...The only reason a person would need to go back to Ketosis would be that they went off Atkins. That is the exact opposite of what his book suggests. Quote:
"The energy produced by 130 grams of carbohydrate"...Not 130 of carbohydrates. We get all the energy we need from fat and protein. There is no need to feed our brains with carbohydrates. I am doing just as well in school as I was before Atkins. So, obviously it hasn't affected my brain. In fact, my classes have gotten harder. For all I know, my brain function may have improved. Quote:
Restriction is the basis of all diets. Atkins restricts carbs...Others restrict fat. LF/Low-Cal diets which are considered normal are in fact the most restrictive as they restrict both fat and calories...leaving the dieter constantly deprived and starving. As for nutrients...I get 100% of the vast majority of my vitamins and minerals from the food I eat. Even the few I don't get 100% of all the time, are usually in the 80-90% range. Vegetables ??? I don't think anyone could go over their CCLM by eating too many green veggies. Fruit ??? Depending on your CCLM...there is alot of room for LC fruits such as Cantaloupe and Berries. A whole cantaloupe has only 40 something carbs if I remember correctly. As for fiber...we can have all of that we want. Green vegetables and nuts are high in it. Fiber is deducted from our net carbs. So, if you are getting all your carbs from veggies and nuts...you should be getting plenty of fiber. As for beans...we can have green beans which are also high in fiber. I believe soybeans are allowed. Quote:
Not true at all. The more exericse you get the higher your CCLM. If you are athletic type and are at Maintnance...you shouldn't have any problems. Even if your CCLM was lower...fat and protein can provide the needed energy. Quote:
Complete and udder BULLSHIT. Atkins never advocated eating a diet entirely of meat. You could do the Atkins diet with Nuts, Fish, and Vegetable oils. In fact, he suggests using healthy oils such as Canola. Nuts are one of the first things added back. The fruit claim is patently false. Fruit (along with nuts) is added back very early on. In fact, he suggests using berries for your 5g increments during OWL. Atkins never said to remove all or most carbs from your diet. If you have a high CCLM...the only thing banned for life is refined sugar, white bread, and trans-fat...the same thing Willet prohibits for life. The Willet diet (by its description) is nothing more than the Atkins diet. The only difference is that Willet tells you exactly what to eat while Atkins tells you to eat foods with or without certain ingredients. Quote:
All these studies involved alot of carbs as well as alot of fat. They also involved alot of Dairy, which is low in Monounsaturated fat...Whereas, beef has more Monounsaturated Fat than Saturated Fat. Monounsaturated Fat has been proven to lower Cholesterol. It is very high in the oils Atkins suggests. Beef, Eggs, and even Lard have more Monounsaturated Fat than they do Saturated Fat. I do not believe his claim that coronary heart disease has been cut in half...Everytime you watch TV they are claiming it is the highest in years. If in fact it had been cut in half...the USDA/AHA would be bragging all over the place about how their diet decreased heart disease. Quote:
My intake looks more like that of Crete...40 something percent fat with alot of monounsaturated fat...and I am doing Atkins. How can that be...I am eating a diet with close to the same levels of fat as Cretians who are super healthy. But, that can't be as I'm on Atkins...According to this guy I should be grabbing my chest and having a heart atatck right now...because after all Atkins causes heart disease. more to come... |
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I think he just proved Dr. Atkins point...A diet high in carbs and low in saturated fat INCREASED the risk of heart disease. How can someone continue to push such a diet knowing that ??? Quote:
He again proves Dr. Atkins point...Eating alot of carbs increases the risk of Diabetes and that getting alot of exercise increases the amount of carbs you can safely consume. Quote:
"Red meat increases the likelihood of...type II diabetes." That is a BALD FACED LIE. Diabetes is caused by insulin resistance, which is caused by eating too many carbs for a long period of time. Dietary fat does not cause Diabetes. Rather, doing what he suggests (eating High Carb/Low Fat) is what causes Diabetes. Atkins doesn't say to eat Red meat instead of Chicken. I eat alot of Grilled Fish, Roasted Chicken, Boiled Shrimp, and other such foods. Nuts are one of the first things added back on Atkins. When I want a snack while I'm out...I eat nuts. Quote:
Yet again...he proves Atkins (and Taubes) point...Low-Fat diets are not only no better at making you healthy, they make you less healthy. Quote:
Replace "fruits" with "Low-glycemic, Low-carb Fruits" and replace "beans" with "String Beans, Pole Beans, and/or Soybeans" and you are doing Atkins OWL. Quote:
The second half of this sentence directly contradicts the first half. Quote:
That food is Aspartame which Atkins tells people not to use. Quote:
Once again, Fat does not contribute to, worsen, or cause Diabetes. Quote:
Ding...Ding...Ding. This explains his whole article. He is an athlete who eats lots of carbs...and thus feels everyone else should eat like him. I ate like he did: Mostly Pasta and Bread with some potatoes...It put over 100 pounds on me...sending me from Overweight to Morbidly Obese. Thanks to Atkins I am only a week or two away from no longer being Obese. more to come... |
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As a matter of fact, we do. I think in Roman literature we have some of the first examples of Bulemic behavior (binging and purging) and they had special places called vomitoriums specifically for that purpose; those that visited vomitoriums could eat until they were past full, go vomit and then come back and eat some more. As for the Egyptians, mummys that are studied show skin folds consistent with obestity, arteries with a large amount of plaque, and advanced tooth decay. I'd say that whatever they were eating wasn't promoting a healthy body. I find it a bit interesting that the Israelites wandering in the desert following the exodus weren't moaning about the lack of bread or honey...they were missing their leeks and garlic. ;) |
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My own experience proves this wrong...I gained weight walking/biking 4 miles a day and playing intense sports for 30 minutes to an hour a day. Why ??? Because in the morning, I'd have 3 biscuits and 2 sodas, at lunch I ate a school lunch which was and probably still is loaded with sugar to lower the percent of total fat, at dinner I'd have a whole basket of rolls, dozens of crackers, a lean meat or many times Spaghetti, and two sides of potatoes, and during the day I'd drink lots of soda (they had soda and snakc machines on school grounds). Even with all that exericse...I was just getting TOO MANY CARBS. Granted, if you are only getting a few too many carbs, exercise will do the job. But, if you are getting way too many all the exercise will do is slow down the weight gain. Quote:
I don't know what the exact the definition of sedentary was in this study...But, I would bet many people inaccurately described themselves as sedentary. I cannot imagine 1:4 people not getting any exercise at all...be it at work, school, home, or the gym. Quote:
15-20 minutes is standard walking. Hell, I used to walk a mile in 13 minutes at an only slightly faster than normal pace. I can't imagine anyone other than someone extremelly overweight or extremelly old walking any slower than that. Then again, I've always been told I walk quickly. Quote:
There is one thing I didn't mention...When I was a kid, I used to ride my bike alot. Alot of kids did then. I don't know if they still do or not. When I go to the gym nowadays...I primarily ride the bikes. I like to swim...but, the lifegaurd on campus got pissed because I like to swim underwater and dive in the deep end. Apparently, your only supposed to use the shallow end and then only do standard laps (above water). So, I don't use the pool anymore.I'll have to see if I can find somewhere they'll let me swim underwater and use the diving boards. |
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Coronary heart disease is up. Fatalities are down, due to bypasses and other medical improvements. This gives anybody, any statistic they want. danny |
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