Re-induction and other crazy experiments!
 

Hello all! I've recently noticed that a bunch of my LC buddies and I have been in experimental moods. The fact is, sometimes we all like to tweak our eating habits to see if they might break through our stalled barriers.

So I'm starting this thread for all who are re-inducting, trying to lower calories, lower fat, lower carbs, raise carbs, raise fat, raise calories, more exercise, switch eating plans; basically try a different plan of attack!

So let's see how these experiments work for us, and perhaps learn some new tricks of the trade. I encourage this to be a healthy collaboration of projects. I would hate to see someone lowering calories to 500 and calling it an "experiment." Please keep healthy and let's see what we can do to get our bodies responding again. Also, anyone who has tried a shake up and seen great results, I'd love to hear about it!

Hope to see some interesting ideas and outcomes. Sometimes our bodies just need a kick in the butt! :)

Okay, well here's my current experiment. :D

I have been doing vigorous exercise since the end of January and Body For Life exercises for about a month (though officially only two and a half weeks.) In this time, I haven't dropped a pound, and though I assume I'm trading muscle for fat, I'm starting to feel fatigued and needy. I've been keeping carbs around 30-40 ECC and been getting through workouts nicely, but something in my bones tells me that I need to do a refeed.

For those unfamiliar with refeeds or carb-ups, it's basically a 1-2 day period where you eat above maintenance levels when it comes to calories and a great majority of them come from high GI carbs. There are a lot of hormonal reasons this works that I probably don't understand well enough to explain thoroughly, but I'll give my take on it and post a few links for the curious sorts.

First of all, a carbup restores muscles with much needed glycogen. This will enable them to grow properly and restore a lot of energy.

Second of all, a refeed will regulate leptin levels, which is a hormone that, when calories are cut, it is depleted and tends to lead the body to hang on to fat. In a cyclic diet, leptin is restored by raising calories and high GI carbs and thus the body loses fat when back on a ketogenic diet.

As promised, here are a few links:

Leptin and Refeeding
Leptin: The Next Big Thing
Carbing Up on the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet
CKD Parameter calculator

I'm not done planning what to eat during my carb-up, but it will consist of about 2800-3000 calories, 70-75% carbs from high GI foods (dextrose, maltodextrin, white flour, potatoes), 15% protein, and the remaining 10-15% fat. The goal is to keep calories high with simple sugars and high GI foods, get an adequate amount of protein, and keep fat to a minimum.

I am starting this Friday after an intense "depletion" workout and it will last all day Saturday. I'll keep you posted. :)

Looking forward to hearing other's stories of experiments!

Hey Angela:

Cool thread! Very timely for me b/c I've been having some bingeing problems trying to get below a setpoint. The binges have been legal so far, but everything I've read seems to indicate low leptin levels. I've been furiously researching about a refeed but always come up short b/c I'm not sure I could handle the carb and sugar addiction (for health reasons). The cravings are apparently pretty tough to deal with after a refeed.

I'll be really interested in seeing how you react. I'd do this if there were a healthier way of accomplishing it. I did see mention of eating high GI starchy foods instead of glucose, but I couldn't find anyone who's done this sort of refeed to see if it works. That could be an option for me. I'm very experimental and I find this whole topic fascinating.

Last summer I was working out a lot, yet I was bingeing (illegally) weekly. I figure if my body wants me to binge, I may as well give it what it wants and avoid the high carb/high fat trap. According to Lyle McDonald, maintanence is almost unachievable b/c of this hormone. That's kinda where I'm at (unless, of course, I change my mind ;) )

Wanda

Wanda,
I did see you mentioned leptin issues in your journal. A refeed does not seem extremely healthy to me either in terms of what's ingested, but when you read the science to it, it does make sense.

I'm curious how I will react to it as well. I have a feeling I will have a psychological high just knowing I'm ingesting "bad" things. I definitely wouldn't try it if I had glycemic issues, but I bet if you wanted to, you could be a high GI guinea pig! I wonder how you might react cravings wise to a day of carrots, baked potatoes, oatmeal, and white bread. If your body is crying out for you to cheat, maybe a planned day would work? Luckily for me, I was never one for sugar. I'm just planning to stay far, far away from pasta. I figure if it has to be low fat, I don't want to eat it anyway. :)

I'll definitely keep you posted. I know I'm going to have plenty of high fat induction foods on hand for after this, as I have a feeling the re-entry process is not going to be especially pretty.

I can tell I'm battling with leptin as well because of the way my body has decided to set up camp here. I know I still have a good deal of body fat to lose before I feel fit and happy and have a feeling this might be a metabolic breakthrough for me. We'll see.

Angela, yes, the science makes absolute sense and I'm not sure why it does considering the method of raising leptin. Maybe that's why Schwarzbein includes starchy veggies in her plan since it's about hormone balance. Only problem is, I can't do her plan on a continual basis. Nevertheless, this leptin issue certainly has shaken up some of my beliefs.

What's funny is that about 2 months ago I probably would have jumped at the chance to do something like the "healthy" or "glucose" refeed. Now I just think "yuck". Give up my fat? Gosh, I feel like I'm cheating everyday now b/c it's just so good! ;) Even when I binge I'm quite happy bingeing on LC foods (so far, anyway).

But if the refeed gets the job done (for me, stops the bingeing by raising leptin; for you, lose weight) then I guess that's the sacrifice you make. I might try the healthier refeed as a guinea pig after my trip. I'm going away to Scottsdale golfing mid-April and I don't want to be fighting cravings or anything before or during that time.

Atkins apparently suggests doing a low-fat diet (Reversal diet) as a stall-breaker. I also saw some info on calorie stagging (which includes refeeds) that I posted here last week. There seems to be a lot of ways to shake up the ol' metobolism. Going to maintenance for a few weeks seems to help too.

I'll anxiously await your outcome and I'll be lurking around your journal over the weekend. Are you doing a 48 hour refeed or 24 hour? Sounds like you are doing a 24 hour refeed. That'll be tough stepping on the scale Sunday morning. :eek:

You are a brave girl, Angela! ;)

Wanda

Really glad to see this thread. I thought about starting something like this in the turtles' section. I'm sort of new to this so I hope my idea isn't too uninteresting but heres my situation:
I have been doing induction for almost a month now and have succeeded in losing 3 lbs. Last week when my loss was still ~ 2lbs, I decided to try the fatfast for 3 days. I did and lost 3 more lbs. When I went back on induction I gained back 2 of those pounds back but what this experiment told me is that high fat/low cal works for me. So, I went out and purchased some high fat items (beef chuck, pate, etc). The thing is, when I post my menu, I keep catching flack for having too much fat in my menu. Well, I've already bought all this food so I need to eat it- hence my experiment on high fat/ low(er) cal. Specifically, I want to try to keep my fat ~ 75-90% and my calories between 1200-1500 (I think 1500 is more realistic since I work out)....BTW and maybe someone can explain this- it was my understanding of the Atkins Plan, in particular the fatfast section, that if you are metabolically resistant and fatfast works for you "maybe any change in that direction" will work well. Did I misunderstand???
Anyway, I will keep you posted on what happens. Thanks for providing the opportunity to share experiments- I can't wait to read what other people try!

I'm looking forward to see how you do Angela.

Hi Reese, I'm glad someone stopped by so we didn't focus entirely on my crazy fun. :)

I find it strange that you're "catching flack" for higher fat. It is definitely part of the principles of Atkins that fat is fuel, therefore taking in more fuel seems quite reasonable to me. I suppose what some might be concerned about is how this may lower your protein and veggie intake. I don't think 1200-1500 calories is too low either... quite realistic. Hope you are able to take in enough food at this level. Fat is quite caloric and I find it harder to keep my calories in the "diet range" when I incorporate a lot of it.

What do your menus look like? Is it basically a fat fast with increased calories and bit more veggies? Make sure you get enough protein, especially if you're working out. Maybe try a good protein drink. I know the Atkins brand is pretty high fat, so they might be a good choice.

I wish you luck with your plan. Sounds like it might be the ticket. :)

Reese, I agree with Angela. Everyone is different. I don't believe in one plan for all even when it comes to LC. What is good for one is terrible for another. I think people do best when they do a little tweaking and experimenting. If you find that 75-90% fat is what works, then you go with it, as long as you are eating nutritiously (getting most of your carbs from veggies and eating good quality protein). You'll have to be very carefully about getting enough veggies, though. Even with protein, people are very individual. Some will stall at higher amounts (especially when they are short women b/c their requirements aren't as high).

A fat fast is a high fat diet with low calories and I think that's more applicable to people with more to lose. Let's face it, a 250 lb person eating 1,000 calories is a lot different than a 122 lb person eating 1,000 calories. A 250 lb person requires more calories, which is why cutting calories to 1,000 per day is more dangerous. It's not the fat level that's dangerous. But 1,000 calories isn't too far off your 10X body weight level. I just don't think that Dr. Atkins' idea of a fat fast really applies to you. Just my opinion since the good doctor's never addressed the "weight" issue with the fat fast.

If you go to Dr. Atkins' site, he has some good information about weaning down from a fat fast to find the best level that works for you. I'll dig up the link if you can't find it.

Good luck,
Wanda

Well, I just started taking Dexatrim Natural with green tea extract and heartleaf (ephedra). Yes, I've read the giant sticky thermogenic thread.

Let's see if anything changes or improves or worsens.

I'll keep you guys posted.


Beth

My current strategy:

1) Hide the scale :eek: (tired of obsessing)
2) Stop fitday-ing :eek: (tired of obsessing)
3) Listen to my body, eat when hungry (I know how to do this LC thing by now)
4) Ramp up workouts to include 3x/week cardio, 2x/week weights, yoga 3x/week as a minimum....workouts done BEFORE work :yawn:

Seems like 95% of successful 'losers' only reach goal by incorporating vigorous exercise into their regimen. Although I'd like to think otherwise, I suppose I'm no exception. :rolleyes:

My new outlook...
 

I am going to try to stop fixating on looking different and try instead to be different.

I am allowed to eat when hungry with no guilt (how many times have I written that to newbies?? LOL).
I will count carbs and stay under 30 a day.
I will sweat everyday - some form of exercise (abs, weights or aerobic).
I am off fitday - but still posting menus in my journal (as for me keeping accountable helps me and letting all others see food options is always something I loved about this forum)

Living life to its fullest is my priorty... eating is not an issue now because I know the rules. I just have to try to always make good choices when i'm hungry.

Great thread Angela!

Well, after being basically stalled since mid-August, I've decided to try doing both low-carb and somewhat lower-cal at the same time. I'm not eating any diet products, and I'll still eat cheese/butter/olive oil/etc, just in smaller amounts. Overall smaller amounts of everything. I have been eating much bigger portions than I needed, and I think that may have been contributing to my stall. I'll be interested to see everyone's results.

Now that the weather is getting nice again, i'll be happy walking to work, which will give me 50 minutes more on my feet each day - I'm hoping that helps too.

lets be losers. ;)

kiwi

Nice of you folks to drop by. :D

Teri... I'm with you on the trying not to obsess part! why is that so hard? Ironically enough I haven't touched the scale for the entire month of March but still am trying crazy new things. Maybe I read this forum too much. :rolleyes: Well, after I try this crazy refeed I'm going to let myself be a low carb loosey goosey with you. I know how to do it too. Plus I'm exercising. I really don't need to pick at every detail.

Beth... keep us posted on the natural dexatrim. I've always been wary of thermogenics myself... tend to think they're going to make me feel all loopy. Probably a good decision to go for the natural stuff. I've been thinking about getting just a green tea supplement myself, but I feel like I already have bought share in the Vitamin Shoppe. :)

Lisa... I can sympathize with the psychological issues involved in this whole crazy "weight" game. I think also once we get past the honeymoon with LC we start to micro-manage every detail. At least, I know you and I do. ;) Yesterday I ate when I was hungry and only induction foods and didn't count a thing and felt pretty good about it. I didn't count calories or use FitDay when I first started and it worked fine, so why get so anal now?

Kiwi... portion control seems like it's always a good thing in reason. That's one habit I've gotten much better about since LC. I just can't cram as much meat and salad into me as pasta and peas, I guess. :rolleyes: I'm also all for exercise. It's amazing how once you force yourself to do it, you just feel so much better and forget how hard it used to be. That's how I feel anyway. I bet your walks will be good for the spirit too. I love long walks in the springtime.

Great responses, guys. I'm looking forward to how tweaks (both physical and psychological) work out for people. :)

Sometimes this thread may be confusing to me bc my real name is Angela, too. So if I respond to something not addressed to me, just disregard :)

Skaminto says:
"Hope you are able to take in enough food at this level. Fat is quite caloric and I find it harder to keep my calories in the diet range when I incorporate a lot of it."
My response:Yes, it is difficult and I am hungry. That is something I struggle w/ (should I just eat if I'm hungry or figure no pain no gain). But having said that, it is much easier to feel fulfilled w/ less calories eating higher fat than on low fat/low cal. Thats also why I said 1500 since that is a reasonable, realistic # for me since it leaves me hungry, yet not starving. Interestingly, when I did the fatfast last week, I was not hardly hungry at all and I'm finding that I'm having much more difficulty the last few days. On the flipside 1200 cals would produce a better weight loss. My BMR is somewhere around 1350 + 300 calories expended for exercise = 1650 to maintain. To lose a pound a week I would need not to consume more than 1150 a day. (I know I'm not supposed to count cals on Atkins but I'm just sharing my thoughts).
Re veggies: I probably am not getting enough veggies and (no yelling at me :( ) I am inclined to cut them out for a while except for 2 cups of lettuce a day. The first Atkins book suggested NO veggies for 2 weeks (I think) and most people I know had better results w/ that.
Anyway here is yesterdays food/activity:
bkfst: 1 strip bacon -0- (cal 50)
2 eggs -1- (200)
snack: 3 oz pate -3- (200)
1/2 oz cream cheese -1- (50)
Lunch: egg salad -2- (250)
lettuce -1-, blue chze -1- (100)
5 mini slices pepperoni -1- (50)
snack: fried ps (80)
14 mini slices peperoni -1- (140)
Dinner: 4 oz beef chuck w/ small stalk celery -2- (400)
1 stalk celery w/ 1/2 oz cream cheese -1- (50)
Cal: 1,570
Carbs: 14 or 15
Activities:
40 min spinning class (AM)
12 min/ 1 mile jog (PM)

Today will be mostly the same:
bkfst:2 sausage patties -2- (190)
lettuce -1-, blue chze -1- (100)
14 mini slices pepperoni -1- (140)
Lunch: 1/2 lb pulled pork (Cals?! say..400?)
snack:2 oz tuna + mayo -1- (220)
Dinner: 4 oz beef chuck w/ small stalk celery -2- (400)
Probably will have snack but will have to be small since already at 1450 cals!
Also, I have started running at night in addition to my cardio & weights in the AM (just a mile or two) so I think it will be interesting to see if that has any addl' affect. If nothing else it keeps me outta the fridge for 15 min or so!