scientific question about ketones
 

i posted something similar to this one recently, and got some interesting answers (my thanks to those who replied!! :) ) but not any that really seemed to address this angle of my question.

how can you be in ketosis (dark colored) and not be losing weight? i have not lost a pound in a month. all weight and inches lost was in the first week of dieting (6lbs.). i am eating <=1800 calories, about 130gm. fat and no more than 100 gms. protein, and never more than 40gms carbs (counting all rare sugar alcohols), and am still in medium to dark ketosis. i drink a pretty fair amount of water, i may still need more, but the question is not "what hidden carbs am i consuming" but "how can i be showing ketone loss in my urine and not losing weight?" i have the "breath" too! *shudder* i am training to be a nurse-midwife, so this really is a scientific inquiry more than anything else.

can anyone help or point me where i can find the reason behind this madness?

Could be because you're gaining muscles and losing fat. Muscles are heavier than fat. Could be you're gaining water (bloated). Could be because you're eating too many calories or protein, in which case your body will convert all those into fat.

So I'd say in addition to weighing yourself, you should also take measurements. Most people will find that they lose inches but not weight.

Paradox, if you are truly in ketosis (and you seem to be from all the signs) and you are truly eating no hidden carbs and eating 1800 calories a day you need to check that you are no losing inches while the scale is in a holding pattern.

How much water is "a fair bit"? It's different to me than it is to you, I'll bet. I'm at what I consider a "fair bit" this afternoon - 4 litres. I'll finish the day off around 6 litres. If you know you need to drink more then that will account for some of the 'deep' reading on the stix.

Another thing to keep in mind: Ketostix measure the presence of burned ketone bodies - regardless of their origin. This means they will register both the results of burned dietary and bodily fat.

Then there's the dreaded "Stall". What is a stall? It's when you're LCing along, hitting the big ketones but not losing fat. You're also not gaining fat - a stall is literrally being stalled during progress, and usually there is a reason for it. Sometimes it's a specific food. Sometimes it's calories (too many or not enough). Sometimes it's medicines or supplements (or a lack thereof). So, yes, it's entirely possible to be in ketosis and not losing weight. It's just as possible to not be in ketosis and lose weight.

Serrelind, when one LCs protein is absolutely positively not converted to glucose and stored as fat. Neither are excess calories. Without insulin present in excess this simply is biologically impossible.

Nat

hi, off topic question :D
i am wondering, if you say it takes excess insulin (from high glycemic load carb intake, or perhaps some somatic abnormality) to convert protein to glucose, and if protein can only be used for fuel as glucose, how then is protein used for fuel on a low carb diet?

I am the same way, not or barely loosing, but in Ketosis, my sis inlaw said I could be dehydrated, so I uped my water and still the same thing! :roll: :yay: :wiggle: :agree:

From what I have read and experienced, the greatest contributors to being in ketosis and not losing weight are:

1. Too much Caffiene
2. The wrong kind of artificial sweetener
3. Too much alcohol
4. Not enough water
5. Eating too much at night and not enough during the day

Good luck! Mike

This is just a shot in the dark. I had a friend who could eat about 50 grams of carbs a day while we done Atkins together and lose as fast as I did. However, I tried to increase mine to her intake and I stayed in ketosis on the sticks, but stopped losing. Altho I didn't gain.
I wonder if you are above your critical carb intake at 40? That's one area that everyone differs in. Have you tried dropping back down to induction level, 20, or even 30 to see if it changes?

Maybe sticking at 40, is still a metobolic advantage, since you aren't gaining but still not the place to sit for OWL.

I am not drinking coffee (as much) and my soda is caffiene free, is Splenda okay? When I did have coffee I put 1 packet if splenda in!?! is that bad?

You've actually got two questions here, but that's OK :)

To store anything as fat you need insulin in excess. When you LC insulin is kept in check and glucagon is dominant - fat storage cannot happen.

Gluconeogenesis is the creation of glucose from protein and it happens under the influence of a few hormones, one of which is glucagon - but most importantly it happens in the complete and utter absence of insulin. It also happens all the time - it's part of your body's glucose homeostasis system. A search on this forum for Gluconeogensis will give you all the fancy details of just what happens, if you're interested.

Protein is not used as fuel - at least your body doesn't like to use it as fuel. Protein is used to build and repair tissue, to build enzymes and to build hormones. Protein is vital to your body and it is recognized as such - F.A.T. is what is used as fuel when you LC. This is why it's important to keep fat up when you LC. You're not eating carbs, protein is not being used for fuel - what does that leave you?

Cheers, Toots
Nat

Ketones in your urine just mean you're converting fat to ketone bodies at a rate higher than your body needs. Doesn't mean it's stored fat though - it could be dietary fat too!

Steven

I was just about to say the same thing, Stephen.
I saw that on another thread once (that dietary fat shows up on Ketone sticks) but Im really confused as to the process of that. I mean, we are supposed to up our fat intake so does this mean if we eat too much it starts to burn that first??

Hi there,

Have you read Doreen T's article called Ketosis & Ketone Test Strips? If you haven't, it explains ketosis more fully. You'll find it in "Low Carb Tips" on the orange bar at the top of the screen. :)

:rose:Rosebud:rose:

The answer is very simple...

You can be in ketosis and not lose weight. As a matter of fact, you can be in ketosis and GAIN weight!

Ketones in your blood means that you are using fat for energy. This fat can come from your reserves or the from fat you eat.

Being in ketosis means that you are not cheating, and that is good! being in ketosis and not losing weight means that you eat the right food, but a bit too much of it..

I am in Ketosis for 5 months straight, and I have stalled for 5 weeks.

I would be very interested in hearing how this could happen. For fat to be gained / stored you need an excess of energy, an excess of insulin and an excess of blood glucose (which would result in your excess of insulin). When one is in ketosis, insulin is controlled and at very minimal levels. Glucagon is dominant - the two, insulin and glucagon cannot be dominant at the same time, it's one or the other. One promotes fat storing (insulin) and one promotes fat burning (glucagon). A diet rich in protein and fat will result in the hormone glucagon being present in larger quantities and insulin being 'squashed' - for lack of a more scientific term.

Yes, you can stall in Ketosis, but gain weight? It's not possible.

-Nat

Edited to add that while it is not possible to gain fat while in Ketosis, it is possible to gain muscle - in which instance gaining weight is possible

N

Nat, are you sure protein isn't converted into glucose? I have heard that this is possible IF you consume too much excess protein.