HAVA- New program from Diet Doctor
A long time in development, but close to launch now. An update from Dr Eenfeldt for those on the waiting list, public launch in New Year:
Quote:
Before it had a name, they called this a Satiety per Calorie index. I have used similar to lose weight and easily maintain that loss for over three years. High protein (the P:E diet) works well by itself but adding nutrient dense foods (Optimising Nutrition) is the icing on cake (if we ate cake) :lol: The DietDoctor website will remain the same focused on Low Carb. HAVA will be the very personalized approach to Satiety. https://www.hava.co/ |
Quote:
I'm excited! And I think they can back it up. |
HAVA has been showing their Satiety per calorie graphics by both a food type and a diet type.
Recently a list of common low carb foods…the highest to lowest satiety scores. A good visual of how some people can reach goal weight and maintain it on low carb, and others stall, never reach goal, or regain. Choosing foods for their nutrition and satiety is the key. Quote:
These samples are on the HAVA Facebook page, https://www.facebook.com/joinhava.co |
First ever HAVA podcast! Bonus, it is with Dr Ted Naiman and Dr Andreas Eenfeldt.
https://youtu.be/8Js2sj6GEY8?si=uHWpcwEMFkKak49c Quote:
How can vegan and carnivore diets both be successful for weight loss and metabolic health?? Satiety Per Calorie is the answer :) |
"Once you learn this, you don't actually necessarily need any app or any tracking or anything, but it's really helpful to have something like this to explain to people and get them on board and get them up to speed as fast as possible with potentially life changing concepts . . . " Dr. Ted Naiman, Hava
Thanks for the link, Janet. I listened Andreas and Ted, and it was a nice introduction to their "tool" yet to be released. The discussion was somewhat painful at times, and Ted is a physician/ engineer, so he's not polished in generating interest or selling, which is what is necessary for Hava now. The quote above stated towards the end of the scripted interview probably should have been removed, as it followed the statement that it will take a long time for people to achieve an improved level of metabolic health, as it does with so many. I hope they do well. I remember when Dr. Westman was starting a business called Heal Clinics, and I was invited to invest and met with him and his team. I've sat through many meetings with technology innovations and startups, and sometimes it's hard to see where things might resonate. I like Ted and Diet Doctor, so I wish them the best with Hava; yet, I'm having a hard time seeing where it might resonate. People want immediate change and feedback. I'm excited to see how they package the tool with services and the price points. Until then, looks like we'll have all the information in early 2024. |
Quote:
Actually, they want instant results without effort. The frantic market in the new GLP-1 antagonists (Wegovy, Mounjaro, etc) tells us all we need to know. In fairy tales, a great price is always asked for the most powerful magic. All these people celebrating "I'm not hungry!" are going to have to work twice as hard to replace that muscle. And if they are nauseated from the undigested food in their system, that effort will be even less attractive. Why do we even HAVE these kinds of drugs for diabetes? We know what causes it, and we know what fixes it. All this money for what does not cure... but does enable. Sure, WLS and the drugs all try for the same thing, which is brute forcing behavior which makes their labs look better. But I no longer see jiggered lab results as having the same impact on health as getting those numbers better from actual nutrition. Most toddlers go through a fussy stage, and want to fall back on five basic goodies to eat. Part of parenting is getting them to try new things. Some of which they will like. Thanks to the "let them eat cake" attitude of today's baby food manufacturers, SCURVY has come back. And doctors take forever to diagnose it because they have never heard of it. If it keeps up, they will put vitamin C in the food and move on to profits. |
Quote:
All true, WB. I believe that Hava is attempting to differentiate themselves from this ferris wheel of dieting by having a tool that won't cause health issues, will not attempt to battle with the food manufacturers, and is simply a mirror to every human identifying those foods that are healthy and satiating for them. Andreas stated as much when he refused to go after the food manufacturers, and that's wise, as we all know, that's been a losing battle. So, why even fight it? Same with the latest weight loss drugs. The full story has yet to be told on the decisions to prescribe and take the GLP-1s. That's the current new shiny toy to make weight loss easy, and that's what most people want. Unfortunately, eating in a way that is metabolically healthy takes some learning where results don't happen overnight, and I'm curious about how people will respond. |
Quote:
Just watched a video about a young woman (not even much overweight!) who now has what looks like permanently disabled digestive system. That's really scary. Quote:
I know how people will respond. They will be soothed with metric tons of digital reinforcement that the Food Pyramid is still in operation. They just call it the Mediterranean diet, now. Still massively pushing plant-based as the ethical and environmental "solution." Which, in practice, is a whole lot of convenience foods. Back in the day, vegans showed off their nut casseroles. (At least they were cooking...) Now, though, it's all vegan donuts, bean burgers, and soy chicken nuggets. So things WILL get worse, and something will change. We aren't there yet. |
Quote:
This is truly the heart of the problem. No new app is going to work on a large scale if it involves effort, which it will. Also people need to prioritze health over appearance. If all they want is to be thin, who cares how, then quick and easy will continue to be what is most appealing. |
Quote:
True, unfortunately. I was watching a video podcast this week with Gabrielle Lyon interviewing Dr. Tommy Wood. Given Lyon's new book touting, rightly so, Muscle Centric Medicine, the topic was how lean mass, muscle greatly influences improved metabolic health. The statement made was said in puzzlement, something to the effect of "why are people today so obsessed over fat and BMI when they should be focusing on increasing or maintaining muscle?" Well, I know why they are obsessed over BMI, as this is the scrutiny done every time there's a doctor visit, and people are assessed on their BMI. For fat obsession, it's more nuanced as the reason varies from person to person, but increasing muscle by stressing muscle enables one to favor lean over fat. It just never happens overnight . . . |
Second HAVA videocast is with Stephan Guyenet, PhD.
Obesity and your Brain; Foods, Satiety and Health. Reviews his 2017 book, The Hungry Brain, and delves into a comprehensive interview, 1hour, 45 minutes! Helps if you read his book, but there is a transcript! https://youtu.be/W4TyG8LKNQY?si=QiSR_cF5BzO-FHyu He covers the Satiety factors from Protein (most important based on scientific evidence), Energy/Calorie density, Fiber and "palatability", what Hava calls the hedonistic factor… And so much more :wave: Stephan supports the HAVA satiety index approach, and mentions that you may not have to include every factor. The P:E result is so dominate, you can lose weight by keeping it simple. For low carbers, Protein percent contributes about 75% of satiety. So protein can work even if that is the only factor you watch, but my overall health improved more by watching nutrients as well. Protein leverage explains how obesity rose dramatically after the introduction of efforts to control cholesterol, This article explains and includes the Holt Satiety Index Dr Guyenet said had so much influence on his work: https://optimisingnutrition.com/satiety-hunger-code/ Ends the interview with an overview of https://www.redpenreviews.org. Some of the worse scoring books…The Carnivore Code and The Salt Fix. |
I finally downloaded and signed up for the Beta trial of Hava.
I was a bit surprised that it recommends a rather low protein target for me (98g). That turns out to be roughly the midpoint between common “keto” recommendations and the P:E Diet for me. Curious… It also claims I should be able to lose an average of 1/2 kilo per week. I have never lost fat that quickly. Surprised it seems to be sticking to standard nutritionist talking points. Has anyone else signed up? Finding it useful? |
Umm, that protein does seem low to me now. Maybe because you don’t need to lose much fat? Marty's starting Macro formula is lower in protein too, I just keep on with what works for me.
I could not sign up for Hava as it required a Google account..or something like that? :lol: I tried to fill out their comment form which had 100s of questions ( :lol: I exaggerate for effect like Naiman now) think I finished it, but yet to hear back. Likely messed that up too. Foiled by technology. |
Hello, my friends. Just touching base, with a click on a dependable LC source person JEY.
I just learned about DietDoctor's "new" scheme. Think I'll stick with the old one. I appreciate the fact that Eenfeldt wanted to honor his roots in original low-carb recommendations. For now, I plan to keep it simple. I've kept my subscription to DD all this time, because I believe it was and still is the most reliable diet and nutrition guidance distributed on the web. Happy New Year to everyone. |
Happy New Year, Barbara, Hope you are well!
Dr Eenfeldt is keeping Diet Doctor for the same trusted low carb and keto advice he always offers. They decided to run HAVA, based on a Satiety score on a separate platform. That's where I had a hard time signing up. But since I have a separate member community, two apps, five FB pages and a partridge in a pear tree, I will stay put as well. I worked out my own Satiety scores using nutrient dense foods and The P:E diet 3+ years ago, nothing has really changed since my success story on DietDoctor July 2022. :hwave: https://www.dietdoctor.com/succeede...-higher-satiety |
Quote:
I don’t have a Google account. It was confusing to sign up, but I just ignored the Google account field and it did work for me. That process did ask a ton of questions about me…I don’t know what they did with the responses! The iOS app has rudimentary food logging with what appears to be a crowd-sourced database (with over 100 chicken breast options, none of which agree on nutrients or satiety score). It feels like myfitnesspal in the crowd-sourcing days but without the ease-of-use features. It also has a chatbot, which might be pretty well-trained on nutrition (the chatbot had a sensible understanding of chicken breast nutrients which did not match any of the data in the food database). I asked the chatbot why my protein level was so much lower than the P:E Diet recommendations, and it told me that 98g is the typical recommendation for an average height male. If I wanted to follow a specific diet, I should work with a dietician or nutritionist to determine appropriate macros. There does not appear to be any way to adjust anything in the app (which knows I am female, along with my height and weight and goals). The chatbot does not appear to know anything about the app itself. It provides generic suggestions when you ask for help, then responds “What a pickle you are in!” when its generic suggestions don’t apply. Not my sense of humor, but that could just be from the large language model they use (I would have preferred a straightforward “Sorry, I am designed to provide nutritional expertise, not application support.”). I like Andreas. I have supported DietDoctor for many years. I hope this shapes into something useful for someone. For now, based on what I can figure out, you aren’t missing anything! I had noticed that Marty doesn’t think we should increase protein…rather that protein % should go up by reducing everything else? I guess I don’t get the notion that we should be more satisfied by just eating less! I am hopeful others will jump in with some secret to making hava more useful. In the meantime, I am providing feedback to the app. |
Oh Darn, an invite to hear Dr Naiman Live … in Stockholm..in January.
Maybe next year :lol: |
So HAVA will be LiveStreaming this event. I’ll watch from my toasty living room with the fire on. :lol:
|
Good presentation. The big announcement other than the satiety concepts we already know, is Photo Tracking, the use of AI with a phone photo of a plate of food, so that all ingredients in the right amounts are entered into the app for you. Currently I can track a photo, but then need to enter the whole recipe into Cronometer and sync it with Nutrient Optimiser. This is amazing improvement.
For an example, Dr Eenfeldt used a plate of Mexican carnitas, then AI identified the recipes and amounts from the web, to create a list of all ingredients, calculate the nutrients, calories, etc and give it a satiety score. It can "see" a cup of rice under the mixed beef and veg, how much corn or chilis, and add everything. Or take a photo of a restaurant meal, it finds the recipes, amounts and automatically tracks all the food for you. Clip about it: https://www.youtube.com/live/YT9FEy...LSrcwhMbd_XrGNb |
Quote:
That is wild! Let people understand their food. I see people on TikTok showing "what I eat healthy" and it's NOT. |
Until the Photo Tracking is live, Marty Kendall is posting the Satiety Scores for his recipes compared to HAVA's. [On Twitter, I know, I Know it is a horrid place]
Today the LOWEST satietyrecipe in the ON database. BulletProof Coffee! Quote:
Dr Naiman's comment: "Satiety Per Calorie — the final dietary arbiter of truth — shall rise, like a phoenix, from the ashes of keto….Just as the prophecy foretold." Kathy, aka KeyTones here, will also be adding her yummy recipes to the HAVA satiety scores, it’s not all meat and veg. |
Quote:
I hope Dr Naiman says this with a smile on his face and his tongue in his cheek. Anyone who believes that they have found the holy grail of dieting, the final absoute truth, is swimming in arrogance and is bound to be pushed off his pedestal eventually when the next god of healthy eating ascends the mountain. Seeking after the truth is commendable. Believing that you have found it for all times, all places and all people is hubris. |
Definitely tongue in cheek. He has said how wrong he was being a vegetarian for the first 25 years, then Atkins, Paleo, then Keto for a hot minute, until he decided to find their one unifying theory, and so far Protein:Energy is holding up. But should something better come along, he will promote it. It is so refreshing to hear a doctor say he was wrong multiple times in an interview, and willing to change.
|
Example of a complete Meal with an 81 HAVA satiety score:
Green Hulk Omelette. I love the green Hulk Smoothie plus berries and forgot this version. Posted on X yesterday so I made the omelet with two added eggs for more nutrition, added the reminder of a bag of grilled chicken breast ( maybe was 6 oz.). I ate around 10 am and totally satiated for the day. Could not eat the salmon I had ready for dinner, had a yogurt with PP instead. https://optimisingnutrition.com/gre...tte/#more-14700 |
The AI Photo Tracking is getting rave reviews. Take a photo of a pan of stir-fry, it picks out the ingredients, and even estimates the amount of oil used in the pan. You can adjust any amounts if needed and there are some meals with high satiety scores (in the 60s) that are spot on. KeyTones/Kathy has posted some great meals on Twitter these past few weeks, some at restaurants, with their Satiety Scores.
Dr Eenfeldt and Dr Naiman posted today: Quote:
Beautiful, slick infographics of high satiety foods! DietDoctor nails it. https://www.hava.co/science My tip of the day. A 32 oz NF yogurt container froze solid because it was placed near the cold compressor outlet in the fridge. Appeared to have spoiled, little lumps of ice, swimming in whey. An Immersion Blender saved the day! Hard going but the yogurt is now super thick and satiating again. With added frozen mixed berries, it is like ice cream! :rheart: Low carb is a great place to start, but there is so much more to eating a nutrient dense diet to finally reach an ideal body weight. "If you’re already low carb, you need to address the 70-80% of your body’s insulin production that is simply related to how much fat you’re carrying. Simply minimising carbs, while an important step, is missing the main game!" |
The new Vegetable scoring introduction. [Fruit is in my journal today]
Dr. Eenfeldt writes on Twitter: Quote:
My favorites that were limited on "keto" are Tubers. Crunchy carrots [59] and the occasional baked potato [43] with a steak. If you replace baked pepperoni,nuts and cheese crisps with carrots, red pepper strips, cucumber, etc, you eliminate hundreds of calories of fat, and gain nutrient dense tasty crunch. |
KeyTones (Kathy) continues to use HAVAs AI photo tracking. Her latest post about it with her awesome success photo. "Left, age 35. Right, age 59, at about half my former size! #thePEDiet, #satiety. Love the new Hava app guidance system with the amazing & easy AI food photo uploader (helped with taking off a bit of holiday weight 😁)"
|
I don't get it. Cauliflower is more satiating than a steak??? I'm not at all sated/satisfied eating veggies. They don't fill me up. Well, they do, for about 30 minutes and then I'm running on empty, whereas 8 oz of ground beef means I'm good for up to 6 hours.
|
Remember this is satiety per calorie.
8 oz of 80% lean ground beef is 576 calories, 37g fat, and 57g Protein. 80 oz (5 pounds!) of cauliflower is 522 calories, 10g fat, and 42g Protein. But since unlikely to eat 5 pounds, even 8 oz of cauliflower is only 52 calories, with a full days RDA of Vitamin C, 4g Protein, and loads of other satiating vitamins and minerals. |
True, but I'll stick with my meat, especially since veggies and fiber in general wreaks havoc with my digestion. But, you've done great on these plans, which is great!
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:32. |
Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.