Carnivore vs Plant-Based vs Satiety: Which Nutrients are Harder to Get?
 

I was looking for a Carnivore thread, the Zero Carb one in Paleo forum hasn’t had a post since Jan2018. So new thread here.

Marty Kendall wrote a new blog post on Satiety and Nutrient Density for various forms of a Carnivore Diet. Each version of carnivore has its Nutrient density and Satiety score with Protein % in a chart. Interesting to learn about these different levels of food lists.

Carnivore vs Plant-Based vs Satiety: Which Nutrients are Harder to Get?
https://optimisingnutrition.com/car...nts/#more-41751


DietDoctor has new guides to carnivore.
Sinking our teeth into the carnivore diet: what’s known, what’s not
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/carnivore
This covers the basics and includes a good list of the websites and podcasts that feature Carnivore.

Thanks, JEY! I'm 90% carnivore, as in animal-based as a portion of my diet. I eat meat, dark poultry, seafood, and dairy, with low oxalate/low carb fruits and vegetables. Which fits right in with this article quote:



Myself, ALL of the above! Keto was great, until it wasn't. Fortunately, the information in Toxic Superfoods, which came out half a year ago, has a lot of nutrition science which greatly helped. It was the missing piece for me. My symptoms got triggered by rhubarb, a high oxalate vegetable, from a keto cheesecake hobby during the pandemic. I still love my low carb cheesecakes, but I'm a lot pickier about plant content these days.

Autoimmune is known to respond to carnivore, and in January of 2019, it put my terrible flare under control in a week. But that was an emergency move, because my plan was to use it as an elimination diet. If I added foods one at a time, I could tell how I had triggered the terrible flare in the first place. My answer turned out to be oxalates. Which I think is highly involved in all autoimmune issues.

And perhaps I had clues to what would help me the most, since I only lasted a few months as a vegetarian. I don't have the enzymes to get protein from all the rice and beans I was eating. I would have had to live on eggs and cheese because the carbs involved was messing me up. Which isn't vegetarian, and I'm sure the nice ladies at the health food store thought I was ignoring their advice, when I was doing it "right" and it still didn't work.

While only a few months on Atkins convinced me carbs are my kryptonite. That was my first successful food change and of course it was the one that had been demonized for decades. But I lost down to what I thought was my lowest size, only to eliminate more non-working foods and achieve greater success.

Our own personal bio-availability issues are, I'm convinced, so important to our food choices. Whatever the nutrients, we need a source we can actually extract the nutrition from. I'm reminded of the first time I read one of those hearthealthywholegrains articles and realized the vitamins they were extolling had been added to the flour. Because there's not a lot of real wheat flour in anything people normally eat. They extol the virtues of whole grains, but no one eats so much as a pumpernickel bagel these days.

Still, I've seen people get healthier on food plans that would literally kill me. And I know some people would need disinformation therapy to even consider eating the way I do. And I still, as I always have, know that it's not as expensive as NOT eating enough animal products, and stuffing oneself in a vain attempt at real nourishment. If you factor in the medicine savings, even though we are both retirement age, and it's still cheaper than trying to fix a problem with bad food and medicine.

Real food will always be cheaper than the autoimmune drugs, even with insurance help. I can buy a box of cookies for $5, or a cheap cut of meat. No contest.

I enjoy two youtube channels, both men are tackling 500# BW with carnivore. And dropping fast. Both men are happy again. Both are delightful to follow.
One comment recently compared low carb keto to carnivore. For this man, ad he reported, lowcarb keto gave good results but switching to carnivore dropped three times the weight over a shorter time.

I wish there were studies to help explain why this works thus way. I wonder if carnivore deals with insulin resistance quicker...

Hi Jey, does Marty provide any information regarding how the nutrient ratings are obtained? In particular, why is Mackeral at 80% but canned Mackeral is only 52% (on a Nutrient per serving basis).

My understanding is that canned fish is cooked in the can so nothing is missing albeit I guess if the temperature is higher or longer than normal cooking, some nutrients could be degraded. Also, in some cases, the bones are left in and are soft enough to eat so presumably that would make canned fish more nutritious.

Arielle,

The major benefit to carnivore over low carb keto is the magic of Protein Leverage. As long as they don’t overdo fat, and get the nutrients that are abundant in protein foods, they should be successful.



More good info on Carnivore: https://optimisingnutrition.com/car...ist/#more-38100

I’ve also read many more stories of NOT losing weight on carnivore, having digestive issues, bored with lack of variety, etc. As people can fail on most "every" diet, inc, LC and Keto. Did X Diet Fail You?

https://optimisingnutrition.com/did-diet-x-fail-you/.

You can harness the weight loss power of Protein Leverage, while still eating a balanced diet including vegetables, fruit and dairy. The biggest lesson from upping my protein and tracking was realizing what is considered Protein on LC or Carnivore food lists is often more Fat, more Calories.

https://optimisingnutrition.com/pro...sis/#more-36979

You may need to ask Marty that in the ON Community. I know he different ratings for the Satiety Index. He gave some broad comparisons to what he uses compared to the Tufts Nutrient Profile system. https://optimisingnutrition.com/tuf...ranking-factors
But sorry, I have no idea why the difference between canned and fresh mackerel :q:

Presumably the fresh mackerel is cooked dryish, whereas canned mackerel has more liquid with it, so 100g fresh dry-cooked vs 100g canned/wet-cooked which may be ~15% water.

Since I've done both, I can compare:

As we discussed when Keto became a buzzword instead of the science of Ketosis, people aren't doing "a diet to put a person in ketosis," which is how I did Keto. Far more are "doing keto!" based on what they see on TikTok. :lol:

It's an information gap. Mainstream health articles, which number in the billions, emphasize that keto drops the weight fast, but no one should STAY on it because MEAT KILLS. Implying that you really want to be plant-based, allegedly "for the planet." The Great Plant-Based Con is an excellent book which debunks many of these myths of veganism.

So people go in ready to bail because of vague health concerns. But there are tons of nut-based protein bars, and the plant-based ones... like with pea protein. And artificial binders and emulsifiers and sweeteners, flavors, and colors. I know, because I've seen them, that people eat 80% UPF with "keto."

And I can't even blame them because the numbers add up. Except in one's body, where that pea protein counts 2/3rds of what an animal source provides. Crunch THOSE numbers and either people get enough protein by eating more of this artificial stuff, or they don't get enough protein.

While carnivore is not subject to such confusion. It's meat, or it's not. It's balancing itself with macros and bio-availability.

Unless we are talking tofurkey or these:

The snag I hit with Carnivore was oxalate-related. I was dumping oxalate because I had dropped my intake to near zero. I had to add in plants, small amounts, to keep the dumping from riling up my immune system. Now, I'm doing great: keto, low oxalate, 90% carnivore. This works the best yet.

After looking at the list again, the subtitle contains 'in the servings we typically eat of them':
https://members.optimisingnutrition...utrient-density

Thus, the difference may be simply to do with serving size - the fish in a can is relatively small compared to a grilled whole one. Another possibility is that the can contains oil and this is taken into account (I personally buy it in, and drink, the brine).

I've since discovered that so much of the nutrient information is decades+ old, and subject to copying errors over the years. Like the nutrient content of spinach, where a decimal place got moved in the calcium content, and suddenly it was a promotable vegetable superstar.

But these kinds of unreliable public domain nutrition data is all over the place. It's why we can't use a spreadsheet on ourselves.

It turns out people who eat meat like the Inuit have a gene which helps then adapt. But Western Europeanson explorers also get adequate Vitamin C, when they ate the native diet.

There's some evidence that a grain heavy diet requires more vitamin C. Whuch

And then there's individual variation. I need MOAR niacin than the RDA, daily.

Boy, brain fog like London in that last comment :)

I was probably going to say something about bio-availability, which is everyone's end game. It doesn't matter what you eat if your body can't get much from it.

There are many sub-forums to add this new article, but this thread covers the nutrition part, paleo, Ray Peat, oxalate dumping, carnivore, etc.
This story is especially for WereBear…is Melissa your twin?

From Trials to Triumph: Melissa’s Nutritional Odyssey to Optimal Health

https://optimisingnutrition.com/fro...optimal-health/

Starting with years of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/ME, she tries Paleo but has gut issues from antibiotics , problems with high oxalate foods, tries and has success on Ray Peat's diet, but gains significant weight, then had some success with carnivore losing some of the weight, but then regained some when carnivore was too high fat. She gives each a fair trial of a few years :spin:

She relates her long journey to Optimal Nutrition from the perspective of a newcomer, finding what is best from each diet, and then finding a new plan totally personalized her her health.

Tried Every Diet Without Success? Uncover Why Some Diets Fail You and Others Triumph. https://optimisingnutrition.com/did-diet-x-fail-you/

Not separated at birth, but pretty close :lol:

Thrilled that she's come back from CFS/ME. That's what DH has. Her story will cheer him up, thanks!

Also, Marty's system intrigues me and I want to try it. But I need the spoons to learn something new.

Fortunately, my new job, writing, is one I've been practicing my whole life. As my energy comes back, I hope to try new things.

Brain fog is one of the reasons I'm no longer conventionally employable. But as the autoimmune gets better, so does my brain.

I have eaten the FDA's standard diet for 37 yesrs and got fat (nearly obese). I went Vegan. lost weight and over 4 years became VERY ill. I added meat back to my diet and was good until menopause. I revisited keto then quit alcohol and was very healthy, despite a cancer scare. I added fasting and then COVID happened. I restarted eating sourdough and drinking wine only to take a 10 kg unwanted detour. I have now quit alcohol and sourdough, gone back to carnivore in early Jamuary 2024, and have shifted 6 kg. BUT, this time I have very loose stools. So I hope my bowels right themelves soon. I do eat some sauerkraut, and fasting is not really a big part of my diet now.

Hi Mintaka! :wave:
Well, that is one way to shift 6 kg, maybe not a healthy long term strategy.. Loose stools are common on a zero carb diet:



https://optimisingnutrition.com/is-...ntial-nutrient/
This article gives advice on the minerals and nutrients missing in zero carb diets and how to correct the side effects.

The ON website has quite a few articles about carnivore diets.



Did Diet x fail you? https://optimisingnutrition.com/tried-every-diet/

Thanks Jey! I am hoping it settles down. I found out this morning that coffee might be making it worse.

UPDATE: I ate a piece of multigrain gluten free sourdough and it seems to have settled my bowels. Relief.

Glad to hear! I get my fiber from coconut, in a smoothie. (Surprisingly difficult to find UNsweetened coconut shreds, too!) Coconut wraps have replaced sandwich wraps. I also discovered how my autoimmune seems connected with oxalates, and paying attention to that really helps me.

I was all animal foods for most of 2019, and it did wonders for my autoimmune flares.

But this triggered oxalate clearing symptoms that look like. A public health expert has a website:

https://sallyknorton.com/symptoms/

with a listing of the symptoms. This was totally new to me a year ago. And now, key to my success.

UPDATE: On 20 Feb, I finally gave up dairy. The intent was to eat only beef and water. I quit coffee and tea about a week after quitting cheese. The chronic bowel discomfort has disappeared! The scoots have gone too.
The foods which seem to irritate my bowels are bread, cheese, coffee, tea and alcohol.
I intend to go to the end of April beef and water only.

So pleased to hear of progress! I hope you are pleasantly surprised, as I was :wave:

If beef and water works for you, great. But there are many nutritious foods between only that and the 5 foods that irritate your bowels..some variations on carnivore do use eggs, seafood and fermented dairy. Consider yogurt for restoring gut health. But glad to hear you are better!

On the topic of loose stools and carnivore. People can have all kinds of issues with sudden changes in diet (Mintaka, if you just started carnivore in January, you're still very new to this way of eating). Some people get loose stools, some get constipation when starting new plans.

This is n=1, but I've never had an issue with loose stools on carnivore. When I was eating lots of veggies/fiber on various low-carb/keto plans in the past, I had a terrible time with constipation. The more fiber I ate, the worse it got, and even landed me in the hospital once for 4 days with a very bad case of diverticulitis. For several years after that, I had many additional bouts of diverticulitis, some coming close to hospital stays again. Since going carnivore in August 2021 and ditching ALL fiber, I've not had a single flare-up.

Here's a video from Laura Spath talking about "Healing Constipation, Hemorrhoids, and other unpleasantness with a Carnivore Diet." Mintaka, you might find it interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUggFivSt54

I am not a stickler for labels. In fact, I hate labels. Some hard-core people in the carnivore world are purists and insist you're not truly carnivore unless you eat only beef and drink only water. A lot of others are more lenient, eating seafood, eggs, fermented dairy, yogurt (as Janet says), which is fine. If it's from an animal, I eat it. I figure if my cat doesn't see something as food, I shouldn't either. Or course, I once had a cat who loved uncooked frozen French fries! :lol:

Marty Kendall has a lot of great ideas and they work for some people (they've worked brilliantly for Janet, for example). I just don't believe his is the final word on nutrition. Do what works for YOU. It's hard work, and it may take years to figure it out, but once you do it all falls into place.

Message for Mintaka and WearBear.

Since I spend much of my on-line Life Down Under, have a new resource on Carnivore, Nutrient Density and an interview with Sally Norton about Oxalates. On X, YouTube, etc. TheMeatMedic. At 4 months he was all in on carnivore, but now at a year, he has added some cautions, a good list of blood tests to check, nutritional deficiencies, etc

https://youtu.be/DwsibKY5sw4?feature=shared. (Oxalates)

A balanced review of observations about benefits and results.
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly of the Carnivore diet


https://youtu.be/Tbb5MF9F_M8?feature=shared

Mintaka. :wave: Are you still on beef and water? This Brisbane doctor covers chronic diarrhea in his update.

Thanks! I'm glad he's thrilled about oxalate, but he doesn't give any reason to be down on carnivore except for things that are mostly oxalate.

We'd also argue a lot about cholesterol. Does cholesterol matter when triglycerides are low? He doesn't say anything about that, but it's the only number I care about. He's talking to autoimmune/mental health patients. EVERY inflammation marker counts.

Putting carnivore and oxalates together is what hits my sweet spot. The oxalate expert he talks about, Sally K Norton, is on a carnivore (animal foods) diet herself. But she doesn't say anyone else has to be.

I appreciate he's got a diet that doesn't clash with his patient's heads quite so much. I do agree with him that oxalate poisoning is what causes so much autoimmune. We're both going out on a limb, there :) But I think we're right.

And it's true. There's relatively few plants which need to be eliminated right away. There's nothing essential about any of them.