Reversing Carb Creep
 

I'm fully in the Atkins zone but I find myself reaching for cheese, nuts, and pork rinds. I'm not eating any of them in mass quantities. Cheese about 3 ozs, nuts about 1-3 per day and pork rinds an oz or 2 here and there.

However, I am not loosing and think I need to examine carb creep.

Any success stories to inspire me?

Did you drop [insert food name here] and have success getting back on the loosing track?

I think this is whats happened to me......no loss in nearly 4 months.
I've gone back to the beginning.....'72 induction. Lost nothing as yet, but its only been a few days.

Yes. I went back to the book, and re-read the "Rules of Induction" and realized that *most* of my carbohydrate intake is supposed to be coming from vegetables - not things like mac nuts, too much dairy or what have you.

I started measuring my salad dressings - especially the goopy/creamy ones, and tossing my salads, caesar-salad style in a large mixing bowl before eating - this went a long way to minimizing the 'little carbs' a.k.a. 'carb creep' on the salad dressing front. Some of the thicker/creamier salad dressings don't coat the top of salads well..they just sit on top, leading some of us (well, me) to goop on too much. The 'tossing caesar salad style' and measuring with actual measuring spoons has helped quite a bit.

Also - made myself these silly worksheets, which I filled out, by hand, religiously for at least three weeks - where I had to account for my vegetable intake. So I had these charts that I printed off - breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks etc. But there was a special 'section' where I had to itemize vegetables in the form of CUP 1, CUP 2, and CUP 3. Yes, I had to micromanage myself for a little while... :lol:

That's a lot of bulk and a lot of food - so it became easier - because with the additional servings of salad veggies and other acceptable veggies, I didn't find myself wanting the other stuff quite as much (ie. the creeps - pork rinds, nuts, snacky things like pepperoni etc).

I made 'announcements' in my journal a few months back - that every single day I was going to follow these new rules I'd set for myself: take my supplements, exercise every day (we're talking easy evening walks), get my vegetables and keep my carbs in line. Of course, 'keeping my carbs in line' meant that as much as I hated it - I had to get more familiar with the My PLAN software on this site - because if I wasn't measuring, and tracking and keying this stuff in - then how in the world would I know if I was meeting my daily goals?

In any case, I have since switched plans -from Atkins to Protein Power Life Plan - but I always focus on the lessons of Dr. Atkins - in particular, that *most* of my carbs are from vegetables, and not the other stuff.

You don't even need to look at this as having to drop certain things - if you make sure you're meeting the Rules of Induction and/or the Carb Ladder properly (whether you're on DANDR or on the old Atkins '72 plan, whether you're still in induction or have moved onto 'ongoing weight loss' - it's still all the same - follow those guidelines) - these carb creep issues will be relegated to the background.

What I'm saying is that no matter where you are - the Rules of Induction still apply first and foremost, and then the subsequent Carb Ladder etc.

Hope this helps a wee bit.

Thanks for the posts. GREAT information.

I do eat a lot of veggies. Usually a huge salad at dinner (often for dinner) -- like 5 cups of mixed spring greens with cucumber and cabbage, spinach sauted(sp) in oil or butter, cauliflower or baked green beans.

I'll try to add veggies at lunch and see if that helps.

I've seen people on here that want to use their 20 carbs for things like SF ice cream, Atkins bars, peanut butter, fruit, bread, etc. That's more of what maintenance 20 carbs would be.....not during the weight loss phase. I average about 25 carbs per day in maintenance and about half comes from things like LC pita bread or tortillas & a very small treat like 2 Tbsp of SF ice cream....otherwise I just keep my diet basic - meat & veggies.

I don't think your issue is carb creep, it's calories. If I assume the cheese is cheddar, 3 oz of almonds and 2 oz of pork rinds I get 7 net carbs and 1170 calories. That 1170 calories is well over half your calorie needs for a day, and doesn't contain a lot of the nutrition your body needs to meet its needs other than calories.

Calories do count, even on a low carb diet.

Re: LessLiz's post - so very true.

Interesting to note that the so-called 'creepiest' carbs are the most caloric.

There's also thinking in terms of carb bargains vs. not so great bargains. For example, looking at carb content relative to portion size. A tiny wedge of cheese as a 'snack' vs. two cups of sauteed spinach in garlic and olive oil, with just a smattering of freshly grated asiago cheese on top as part of a meal.

There are ways of getting around these things. Stronger cheese, in smaller portions - as garnish. Still lots of flavour, but not 'too much' in terms of the creep-factor.

You could be right, LessLiz. I have been tracking my calories too since January. My calories have ranged between 1,400 and 2,000 per day. I average around 1,650.

I work out every day (alternating hiking with my dog and light weights.) I don't eat nuts and pork rinds every day but I do eat cheese (straight or in a recipe) every day.

Calories too high?

You and Liz are the wise ones. Judy too, but she is a renegade South Beacher, and no one listens to South Beachers. :lol:

I'm listening!!!

:lol:

You don't have to be a Beacher to appreciate the lessons in the plan, and in the experience of successful SB'ers.

IMO, calories do count. When I was actively losing on very low carb, I usually ate 1100-1200 calories per day. When I wanted to stop losing, I ate 2000 calories of mostly fatty foods like nuts and cream. I was never big on cheese or pork rinds.

I don't know that it is absolutely too many calories, but your choice of where those calories are coming from may be leading you to eat *more* calories than you would if you made better choices.
This is in line with Citrustkiss's spinach example.

For myself, I get hungry every day at 4 pm. With every variation of diet I've tried, this still happens, and if I don't eat I get hungrier and hungrier so that by 5 I am ravenous. Here's how this relates to you: it's shortly before dinner, I'm about to start cooking, so what I want to do is grab something easy, eat it, and get on with fixing dinner. I used to grab an ounce of nuts or an ounce of cheese, more likely nuts, and 15 minutes later I am still hungry. If I grab another quickie for 150 - 200 cals I am still hungry!

I have found that this is when I need something in the fridge that I can pull out and *heat* then eat. A single chicken wing, smothered cabbage, broccoli with a grating of cheese -- any of these solves my hunger issues better than nuts or cheese or pork rinds. And all of them are lower in calories with about the same carb content.

I have finally had to admit to myself that even though nuts and cheese (I hate pork rinds) do provide nutrition and calories, that they are in many respects low carb junk food (for me) because I have to eat a lot of calories of those foods for them to quell hunger. Many fewer calories of chicken, beef or veggies with a fat and protein kill my hunger faster and more completely.

I've pretty much eliminated snacking, except for after dinner, I need to work on that one... god, it can be out-of-control sometimes.

Anyway, the key is just making sure you eat ENOUGH to feel satisfied at each meal and don't eat again until you're hungry. Takes some re-training but it can be done!

Thanks again. I do try to "snack" on olives while I am preparing dinner. However, I can see that the cheese and nuts can be grab and go food for me when I have left it too late to prepare something nutritional. The pork rinds are usually on the weekend as a substitute for popcorn/crunch while I am watching a movie.

isnt 5 cups of salad way more than it calls for?

I'm not just starting out on induction. Argula, raddichio (less of this) and mache are my favorite lettuces. It adds up to just over 10 carbs for 5 cups of this mix. Full of so many nutrients too. I am quite certain that my 5 cups of salad aren't causing me to stall.

salad makes me stall BIG time.. i have to cut it down to no more than one handful a day.

That's very odd.

i know. i hate it. last time i had a big salad i gained 2 pounds.. i have to be pretty careful what i eat. ick. now that i limit it to 1 handful ive started losing again

I'm also quite certain that your salad greens aren't causing a stall either.

When I upped my veggies, and ramped down the other 'little carbs' as I call them, my weight loss picked up again.

I realize everyone's different, but I do have a very tough time believing that vegetables are the 'problem'.

In fact, there's this one amazing post that really opened my eyes up to this...



from: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showpost...48&postcount=44

I just *love* that line, "are the vegetables the problem?"

For the longest time, I thought the vegetables were the problem. I'd put scant amounts of veggies and salads on my meal plates.

But um - those veggies and salads were more like 'cheese delivery vehicles' than anything else. Plunk down the tiniest amount of salad onto my plate, then sit there at the dining room table, with a giant tablespoon from the cutlery drawer, and 'goop' on the Marie's Super Blue Cheese dressing - right on top of the grated cheddar that was covering up the little bit of green stuff in there.

I'm not suggesting anyone else does this, just sharing my own experience with the 'vegetable problem'.

So yeah - I thought the veggies were stalling me. :o

Sara

Sara, thanks for reposting that reply from Regina. This makes a lot of sense.

Sara, that was a great quote from Regina...really hits home on the very topic I've been dealing with recently. I personally have a hard time accepting that veggies (and even some fruits) can somehow be "bad" for me...I've actually upped my carb allotment and exchanged my high fat approach as such. I feel like there needs to be a tradeoff and I think I've finally found a balance that works for me.


I have to tell you I laughed SO hard at "Cheese delivery vehicles" OMG this was SO true for me in the past. I was just reading reading on the PP blog (Michael Eades) about something called a "calorie torpedo". In this case he was talking about nuts, but I've found cheese to be the same problem for me. When I first started LC I went nuts...um, ok, ironic phrasing...I guess I meant I went crazy and overbaord with cheese. I could eat SO much of it. And then the nuts were next. And of course blue cheese dressing. And butter. The list goes on. But in retrospect, I realize I was experiencing both carb AND calorie "creep". Now I use nuts and cheese sparingly and live with the "calories DO count" motto. Seems to be working much better and I enjoy a wide range of veggies (and even fruits) in my more moderate carb, and much better balanced, lifestyle.

P.S.

Yipee! Bring on the salad. Thanks so much for your amazing post, Sara, as well as my new terminology -- "cheese delivery vehicles" and Lisa -- "calorie torpedo."

I'll keep you posted with my progress.

Forgive me for hijacking this thread, but there's something nagging at me about all of this.

Yes, I remember Dr. Michael Eades' excellent blog post about "Caloric Torpedoes"

For reference purposes, here is that blog post:

Caloric Torpedoes

I find it interesting to note that the 'caloric torpedo' chosen to illustrate his points - is a bag of nuts and dried fruit. Seemingly low in carbs per portion size, but the small-ish bag contains much more than just one serving etc.

Here's what's really nagging at me...

What if it's NOT the calories or the carbs?

Why is it that we have all kinds of people with fantastic success on very low-carb, others who have success with increasing their fat content, still others who've upped their carbs and spurred on weight loss again?

Why?

We have people who are following a 'zero carb' path, people who like to do 'meat and eggs' for awhile, others who are doing Atkins '72 - and they are all finding success.

We also have people who are increasing their carbs - adding in more vegetables, fruits and so on. They are also finding success.

The common denominator seems to be the elimination of foods that combine both carbohydrate and fat. Particularly, if that food, in it's whole state - contains both carbohydrate and fat, especially in relation to portion size.

Nuts, nut butters, cheese, certain salad dressings.

The zero carbers aren't eating very much cheese, and they aren't eating nut butters or snacking on nuts. The people who have found success with a higher-fat regimen, for the most part - they seem to be choosing fattier cuts of meat, adding in olive oil or coconut oil or whatever.

Meanwhile, the South Beachers are not eating much in the way of full-fat cheese, or nuts either.

I don't find olive oil to be a problem. I don't find butter to be a problem in terms of losing some weight for most people (unless there's an intolerance to dairy foods). I don't find more vegetables to be a problem either. Even fruit, in moderate amounts.

Why is the Atkins KISS regimen working so well too? The only added fat recommended in that plan is olive oil - but one can have all the meat, eggs, veggies they want (except starchy veggies). Once again - they're not eating foods which contain both carb and fat together. I'm willing to bet that butter would actually be ok on the Atkins KISS plan - just that you don't want the cream or the cheese etc.

We wonder why there are limits on cream and cheese on the Atkins plan. Sometimes we think it must be because of the calories - but if this were the case, then why is butter not limited? Why isn't olive oil limited? Or beef?

There is a common denominator across all of these plans - from VLC or 'zero carb' to South Beach maintenance. The foods that contain both carbs and fats together have to be 'controlled'.

Is this what's meant by 'controlled carb' ? I've never quite grasped that concept.

So you take nuts, cheese, even something like pepperoni - relatively 'carby' in terms of their portion size, and also high in fat calories.

So, if the "caloric torpedo" was a little vacuum sealed pouch of butter slices - would it have the same effect on a low-carb eating plan?

Why are the low-carb desserts a problem? They're fine as a special treat, but they don't produce weight loss. When you combine cream cheese, and attach it to a nut crust - what are you getting? That same combination.

When you eat an Atkins bar of some kind, sure it has those dastardly sugar alcohols, but what else makes these potential stallers? Again, that same combination of carb and fat (ie. nuts).

So why is it that 'zero carb' all the way up to 'moderate carb' works so well? Why do we see "Atkins '72 ROCKS" and somewhere else, we see "I upped my carbs up to 60g a day and broke my stall" ?

What do all the plans have in common?

:q:

<<The foods that contain both carbs and fats together have to be 'controlled'. >>

Interesting theory. I can see nuts falling into this category but heavy cream?

Your post is full of thought provoking ideas. I intend to noodle on them.

Sure. When I wanted to stop my weight loss, heavy cream was my weapon of choice.

If you consume too much dietary fat, your body will have all the fuel it needs and won't need to draw on fat stores, no matter how severely your restrict carbs.

Read the howskinnykiniget thread.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=379366

1 oz of almonds or
1/2 oz of chicken breast, 2 stalks of broccoli and .61 oz of butter

Both are 170 cals, 15 g fat, 2-3 g net carbs and 6 g protein.

The differences are in micronutrients. I'd have a hard time looking at those in isolation and declaring one better than the other. The real question is the overall balance.

I find that people who eat a lot of cheese or nuts or cream do not eat a lot of veggies. I find that for me, eating a wide variety of veggies is better than eating larger portions of fewer veggies. (I'm using veggies as a shorthand for fruits and vegetables, btw.) I often wonder if other people would benefit from eating more different veggies in smaller portions, but I have no idea if this is the case.

Excellent post LessLiz!

Don't you find it curious that the almonds have all of the macronutrients together in a single food? And for a very small portion size?

But yeah - definitely - if I'm hungry, I'd be much better off with chicken, broccoli and butter than a single ounce of almonds.

I have also found this to be very true. I switched from Atkins to PPLP, and there was way more variety of fruits and veggies - and I'm not eating a large amount of any one particular fruit or veggie. I think you're onto something :)

I couldn't overeat chicken or broccoli, but an ounce of almonds? I can easily eat an entire can of almonds.