Steffanson and Dairy
 

Just curious as to why some "all meaters" here justify eating dairy and at the same time quote V. Steffanson -- who specifically rejected the notion of eating dairy during his year-long documented all-meat diet experiment?Makes sense he would reject dairy beause Inuits certainly weren't milking fish.

But does anyone know about native American primarily all meat diets? Did they ever eat buffalo milk/cheese???

And how do some following a paleoish type dietary regime justify eating butter/cream -- but not cheese??

:q:

Sure they did. Haven't you ever heard of a buffalo standing still to be milked??---especially when all the others in the herd where being chased and killed.
But I suppose the best milk during paleo times came from the WOOLY MAMMOTHS. LOL :D

I'm on my 3rd day without any dairy and I literally shed 5 lbs. overnight. Check out this site.

The guy running the site is obviously a PETA wacko, but he challenges you to go a week without dairy. Give it a shot. See what happens.

Humans have no need of milk after being weaned from their mothers. Most humans just like the taste of milk and milk products. IMO it has nothing to do with nutrition, but the same thing could be said of many things humans eat.
One thing is for sure--most humans like a lot of variety in their diet. ** Notice I said "like" not "need" a lot of variety in their diet.

Not strictly true, humans continue to produce the digestive enzyme lactase throughout their lives which is used to break down lactose in dairy food so not only infants benefit from milk products. I don't know why we do but we just do. Those who are 'lactose intolerant' (an overly misused common selfdiagnosis of the modern age) may simply have reduced production of lactase.

I never said adults could not digest dairy nor did I say we could not utilize it. I said it was not neccessary after infancy. For all I know cows produce lactase all their lives too, but I have never heard of an adult cow still nursing its mother. While it is true that most humans nursed their offspring much longer in the past than they do today (some up to 5 years of age), I doubt that adult humans still nursed the lactating women in their tribes (but ya never know! :D). Seriously, milk from non-human sources was probably not used by humans until they domesticated animals during Neolithic times. That means that the earliest humans did not drink milk after they were weaned in childhood.

ps: Just think of cats for an example. Domesticated cats would never drink milk after they were weaned unless humans gave it to them or they were starving and just accidentally happened upon a bowl of milk. The same is true of all mammals. I believe humans are the only mammals that choose to drink milk (use milk products) after they are weaned.

Unless my feline vet was terribly mistaken, cats should not be given milk once they are weaned because it upsets their digestive tracts and gives them diarrhea. I would take this as cats cannot digest milk (especially the milk of another species) past weaning.
It's true that humans are the only creature that I can think of that drink milk past the age of weaning and the milk of another species to boot.
That said, I'm not a big fan of milk and haven't had any since my last pregnancy 11 years ago, but I do like cheese and yogurt and eat them in moderation; I eat them because I like the taste, not because I think they're a necessity for good health. I don't make a big deal about my kids drinking milk, either, because I really don't buy that it's necessary for good health past the age of weaning (with the possible exception of yogurt with active cultures after a round of antibiotics to help replace the 'good' gut bacteria). If they want it, it's available, cheese and yogurt as well, but I don't force them to have a serving of dairy at every meal if they don't want it.
If someone takes the stance that they will only eat foods that paleo peoples ate, all dairy products would be out since paleo people didn't consume any type of milk or milk product past the age of weaning; where would they get it since a wild animal will not stand still and allow its milk to be taken.
OTOH, how many people have their plan listed as "Atkins + coffee" or something similar? Lots of people don't follow their plans exactly as written because they aren't willing to give something up. ;)

I like cheese, and based on the limited food that I eat, eliminating cheese would just make my diet too boring....I grew up in Wisconsin, so I HAVE to eat cheese you know!! ;)



LOL Fluffy!! :lol:



I have heard this as well. I used to drink lots of milk (a gallon a day), but then one day I quit as I found it was too hard to maintain my weight and drink milk.

Some people that are "lactose intolerant" are really gluten intolerant (celiac disease). Lactase is produced on the tip of the villi in the intestines. On those that are intolerant, gluten blunts the villi, destroying the cells that produce the lactase.

Once celiacs drop the gluten from their diets and heal their gut, they frequently find that they are no longer lactose intolerant.

The frequency in humans of lactose intolerance varies a lot depending upon your ancestry.

http://www.diagnosishealth.com/lactose1.htm
Lactose intolerance (LI) is a common disorder that affects a quarter of the US population and may affect as many as 75% of the world population. The prevalence varies by race and ethnicity. It is more common among African-Americans, Hispanics and oriental population. In India, for example, it is seen in 25% of north Indian and 70% of south Indian population.

Most common for is the adult-type or primary deficiency where there is usually deficiency of Lactase enzyme activity and not complete absence. Congenital lactase deficiency is rare.

Milk intolerance suggests onset of symptoms after drinking milk and not necessarily lactose intolerance.

Symptoms of Lactose Intolerance include bloating, stomach pains, diarrhea and gassiness. Symptoms may occur in some patients even when their lactase enzyme activity is within normal limits. This may occur in 5% of adults. Thus, some people erroneously think that their symptoms are due to lactase deficiency when that is not true.

Lactose restricted diet may improve symptoms not only in lactase deficient patients but also in irritable bowel syndrome in adults and recurrent abdominal pain in kids.

Having not had anything with wheat since Xmas, I think its safe to say it was strictly dairy screwing me up. Unless the gut takes more than 6 months to heal.

Probably. I wasn't referring to your post, just the lactose intolerance post. It is possible to have an intolerance to casein, one of the proteins in dairy.




A lot of celiacs report that it can take a year or more to feel good again after going off of gluten.

I think it's easy to get too carried away with doing this "strictly," in the sense of following some plan right down to the letter. Most of us are doing this to make our lives better, not to live according to somebody's theory laid down in a book. If loosely following a paleo plan and adding dairy makes somebody happy and able to realize their health goals, more power (and cheese, and butter, and yogurt) to them. If someone follows Bernstein's but is able to maintain BS while eating tomatoes, great for them!

Personally, you can take my cheese when you pry it from my cold, humming, refrigerator, after you get through me first ;)

He, he, he!!! Gotta have my cheese!!! :yum:

Gotta have my CHEESE, my dh teases me about the block size I buy. It is sooooobig. But it kills the cravings and thats all I need.

I have heard this also.

I wonder if the reason we find that dairy helps weight loss (beyond what calcium, proteins, etc would explain) is because a certain percentage of the population does not completely digest it. Therefore, when researchers put people on equal calorie diets containing dairy, the LI people will lose more weight primarily because the dairy is encouraging malabsorption of nutrients (in the dairy itself as well as other foods because of what it does to the gut). The average weight loss of dairy eating will reflect that dairy = weight loss, even though rates between individuals could vary significantly (because some people tolerate, thus digest, dairy products better).

Fortunately I handle dairy pretty well, and it takes a tremendous amount for me to experience any digestive upsets.

I agree kwikdriver but the thing about paleo is it's as much a philosophy as it is an eating program, much like vegetarianism. The belief fueling paleo lifestyle is that we have not changed considerably since the paleolithic era, therefore, our nutrition (and lifestyle if possible) should as closely as possible mimic paleolithic eating/living. A paleo who eats cheese is not a true paleo, although it is possible this person's diet and lifestyle is paleo based. A lot of the paleo lifestyle & beliefs has to do with things a bit deeper than losing weight and gaining health. There is an undercurrent of rejecting modernity (corruption of natural order), and "returning" to primitive ways which are harmonious with life & natural rythms. If you read the paleo forum, you get that vibe immediately. It's about more than food for sure.

I view paleos who eat cheese similarly to vegetarians who eat fish. A pesci vegetarian is not a true vegetarian, even if they believe vegetarianism is the correct way we should eat, and that it is wrong to "use" animals. A pesci vegetarian can only say their lifestyle is vegetarian oriented, but they really aren't truly vegetarian because, frankly, fish are sentient animals.

The way I see it that one is older than 2 yo, he or she should be eating only cultured and fermented dairy: yougurt, kefir, sourcream and cheese. This type of dairy does not cause LI, simply because lactose is digested by healthy bacteria, and works as digestive aid. There is a reason that French eat cheese after a dinner as a digestive aid. This is quite different than watching adults washing down burger and fries or pizza with a glass of milk. :nono:

And some people didn't really buy into the philosophy of paleo (even though they think they do), but like the name and image. Who cares, as long as what they are doing works? Those people who have bought into the idea that there are "good carbs" and saturated fat is bad follow SBD. As long as it works for them, who cares? If faux paleo lets someone stay away from junk, then good for faux paleo. I don't understand why anyone would want to stand outside someone else's plan and make judgments about how well or poorly they are following it. Eat and let eat, I say. This is about happiness, not purity.

I know the only reason I continue to eat hard cheeses and butter are because I have already given up so much in my diet... I don't know how I could stand to give up a slice of cheddar or butter in my eggs. I mean I have no sugars, no starchy veggies, no high carb fruits, no grains at all.. Taking my cheese out will realy limit my foods.

I am however- toying with the idea of taking out cheese and seeing how that goes. I really don't ever plan on getting rid of my butter, because it would be hard to keep my fat intake high without it. (for me anyway)

I agree with your comparison of the present paleo philosopy that is now being espoused on the Paleo Forum on LCF with vegetarianism. Some "meat and meat products only" people, like some vegetarians seem to be evangelistic in their earnestness and zeal and try to "convert" others to their way of thinking and eating. I am truly intestested in how early humans ate from at least an anthropological standpoint and although I certainly believe there have been thousands of years of acculturation since the dawn of cilvilization that influences much of what modern humans believe or don't believe and do or don't do, I am not convinced that the inclusion of vegetables and fruit in the human diet is entirely the result of acculturation. I was under the impression when I first came to the Low Carber Forums two years ago, that the Paleo/Neanderthin forum was based upon the published books on that subject, namely The Paleo Diet and the Neanderthin Diet. It seems that for a long time, people who on the LCF who identified their woes as "paleo" followed more or less the diets in those books--neither of which recommend only eating meat or meat products. The shift towards "paleos" being identified as being mainly those who only eat meat or meat products (I like to call them
"animal only" eaters, has caused some confusion and much controversy on the Low Carber Forums, in my opinion. While Stefansson is quoted I believe by the authors of both of those diets, I don't think he is the be all and end of of the Paleo philosophy of eating. One thing that bothers me is that some people who have chosen to eat only meat/meat products, give the impression that those who don't are supporting the vegetarian or lacto/vegan philosophy. Nothing could be further from the truth in my own case. I eat mostly meat with a few vegetables and fruit NOT mostly vegetables/fruit with a little meat.

I agree in the "whatever works for you" idea also. I have nothing against a "meat-only" WOE. There is a lot about it that makes sense. It's the attitude that "their WOE is the only "right" one" that is bothersome. I would say the same about anyone who has the same attitude about Atkins, SB or an other WOE.

If you knew for sure what early humans ate would you eat that way as well? Is that what you would think to be the optimal diet, kind of stripping off all of the BS/acculturation that has been added over the years?

Good question. To be frank, I don't know. I know I can do without ice cream, shakes and fries without any problem. I can also do without candy and pastries for the most part without feeling deprived. I do have a problem with chocolate. I swear it is like SEX--no kidding. I don't know if it is a female thing or WHAT. It is not the sugar in the chocolate either--it is the chocolate itself. I have heard there is something in chocolate that is soothing and it seems to work for me. I know that carob grows wild and may or may not have been eaten by paleo man and cacao beans have been used by South Amercian tribes for thousands of years. I am not willing to strip off everything to be like my paleo ancestors, otherwise I would be walking around nude and NO one wants to see that at my age. LOL. :D

From what I have ascertained from studying anthropology in college and reading, as well as talking with my son-in-law who has a masters degree in anthropology, paleo man ate a varied diet of meat and vegetation depending upon the climate in which he lived. I believe it is the human capacity to adapt to various food sources that has insured his/her survivability. Therefore, I believe that a diet consisting of both meat and vegetation IS the optimal human diet. The ratio of protein/carbs/fat is still being debated. I discussed the diet of the Kung/Sans (bushmen) hunter-gatherers in a post a wrote last week on the "Paleo-Water Ramifications" string of posts on the Paleo forum. Their diet most likely remained relatively unchanged for over 20,000 until the encrouchment of civilization in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

SO... it's safe to say a lot of us will never cut the cheese?

<disclaimer: I hang around a teenage boy most of the time... :lol: >

LOL Fluffy!! :lol:

How about native americans, it would probably be easier to know what they ate. They were generally described as pretty fit people.




No that's definitely NOT safe.....I mean yah I'll keep eating cheese!! ;)

Most anthropologists believe that Native Americans came to North America via an ice bridge over the Bering Strait when they followed herds of game during the last ice age (late paleo). Their diet varied as did that of all humans upon the climate. However, as far as I can tell, they never inhabited places that were completely without vegetation including the far north. How could they? The very herds upon which they were dependent needed vegetation. You could perhaps make a case for the Inuits living on a mostly meat (seal whale, fish) diet, but even then they most likely did and still do eat some vegetation (berries), albeit far less than their cousins to the south.

As far as Native Americans who inhabited what we now call the United States, they ate nuts, roots, tubers and berries and even boiled the bark from some trees.

Think of it THIS way----how in the world could humans ever begin to CULTIVATE plants if they never ate wild plants in the first place???

Or maybe to put it better--WHY would ancient humans ever come up with the idea of cultivating plants if they never ate wild ones?

ADAPTABILITY is the keyword when it comes to the evolution and survivability of various species including humans. Whether adapting agriculture will lead to the survivability of our species or not is yet to be known, isn't it?

This seems like the right moment to mention a concept for which I've incurred much scorn in paleo circles: Bambi cheese! (not my term, but it'll do)

Perhaps the simplest way to make cheese is from rennet, a substance found in the stomachs of young cows, goats, or sheep. The rennet curdles the milk that these animals (still suckling) consume. The premise here is that paleolithic hunters sometimes killed young animals, discovered the stomach-fermented milk, and ate it (especially in view of the fact that the youngest and oldest animals are most vulnerable to predators). Thus, they would have had access to cheese prior to domestication of animals.

Okay, it's a stretch, but the closest thing to this would be simple farmer's cheese.

Is this YOUR theory or have you read this somewhere? It is indeed an interesting theory but I doubt it could be proved one way or another. It is more likely that cheesemaking, like beer making and other processes that called for fermentation did not begin until Neolithic times. Also (again it can't be proved one way or another) I doubt that they began to make cheese until after animals were domesticated--again in Neolithic times. There are some nomadic tribes in Asia who despite being on the move, make cheese (yak or goat) and take it with them.

A case can certainly be made for stone-age hunters killing the youngest and oldest animals. Bones of bear cubs were found in caves inhabited by ancent humans. While it used to be thought that humans occupied the caves after the bears moved out, it is now thought that they killed the bears and brought them back to the caves where they (humans) lived. This has been established from the fact that there are remains of charcoal from campfires interspersed with the bear fossil assemblages. But making cheese from the contents of baby bear stomachs would be quite a stretch of the imagination.

BTW, you can buy rennet in many grocery stores today--mainly in the form of packaged "junket" for making homemade pudding, but also sometimes as "rennet" in cheesemaking kits.

ps: If you have any information on this, please post it--interesting idea.