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-   -   Review: "Ultra Processed People" book will make people read labels. (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=485552)

WereBear Sat, Jul-08-23 04:49

Review: "Ultra Processed People" book will make people read labels.
 
A lot of us have been reading labels for a while, but now it has a whole new meaning. I finished this book last night and couldn't stop thinking about it this morning.

It's a fresh and fun read. A man's experiment is 30 days with zero UPF. Then, 30 days with 80% of calories being UPF. With metabolic tests and brain MRI at test points.

80% of calories from UPF is incredibly common. They lack grocery stores and cooking facilities and money itself. Now the fast food places have apps to reward free food when they purchase.

I've already seen a lot of screaming denial from people who do not have the deep understanding of food we have, those of us who have been working at our health. I saw a review claim the book "doesn't explain anything" but it couldn't be clearer.

A food can be constructed to have a similar nutrition profile, yet at the 80% UPF level a month of it had put enough weight on him. That had he kept eating that way for a year, he would have doubled his body weight. And you do want to know what only 30 days of this diet did to his brain.

A wild twist to this is how he lives in the UK, but has an identical twin living in the US. Who weighs more. The irony is how the way he ate, which kept the excess weight in check, was actually normal/good by our standards. Black coffee for breakfast, a sandwich, crips, and soda lunch, but then a cooked dinner for themselves and two small children. He always added a dessert, which is what he blamed for his excess, though stable, weight.

Most of the time. But being busy and relying on takeaway is also "normal." When it was all added up, his daily was UPF at a 30% of calories range.

I also found a great deal of perspective from reading this book, especially since many have been distressed by the spate of news claiming terrible things about artificial sweeteners. Forget that packet for the morning coffee, people, because it really does seem to be a case of just how much we want to confuse our bodies, and when.

The book concludes with a "why real food really is best" in a way that magnifies our own low carb experience. Remember that realization that so much of what we were eating wasn't food? Not food in a sense that our body could use, and poison in the sense that it was why were were suffering from its effects?

It turns out, we were right. More than we ever thought possible. Spoilers below... because it is a fun read. Go get this book and then give it to someone who needs to know.

cotonpal Sat, Jul-08-23 05:25

This looks like an interesting book. I haven’t read labels in years. That’s because I have been eating only real foods since I discovered paleo over two decades ago, that is foods that don’t need to have a label. It feels like common sense to me to not eat manufactured foods but I am aware that I am in the minority. I just prefer to feed my body foods not poisons.

JEY100 Sat, Jul-08-23 05:35

Thanks for this review, WearBear. It is still "on order" at our library, so I haven’t read it yet, but always take it as good news that another member of our community requested it, or the Library Purchase staff thought is worthwhile.

WereBear Sat, Jul-08-23 05:45

SPOILERS because this book astonished me, and if you want the same experience, stop reading.

The astonishment was not that we were right about eating actual foods, but how right we are. The shortest version I've run across is also covered here: processing that destroys the matrix is what makes it not-food. The corn kernel I eat doesn't do me much food. But, with real butter and off the cob, it's something most bodies can deal with.

UPF creates a Frankenfood which shows up on the label with an identical nutrition profile to real food. But so much of it is literally dirt cheap ingredients meant to fool the body into thinking it's real food. They tested the taste buds, where this works like a charm. They didn't do these tests, with the MRI. And it turns out, if they had this labeled as a drug, this stuff wouldn't be legal.

This isn't processing like "now it's yogurt" or even JEY's process milk with a profile that works better for her body. We are talking NOVA 4, as the scale goes. This is a concept pioneered by a Brazilian team who studied the radical decline in rural health with the adoption of a Western diet, the infamous pyramid of DEATH.

I feel more empowered than ever before to make the right food choices. This book has given me nuance to the point where I have more possible variety than before, when it comes to whole foods. Adding more fruit carbs, and not experiencing cravings, let me follow guidance about higher carbs while healing from something serious. There is a lot in the Toxic Superfoods book, another success with me, about upping carbs as part of the process. It takes stress off the liver, and it seems to work. I always liked cranberry sauce with my turkey. Every Thanksgiving, we get it from a deli who makes it fresh.

This turns out to be a marker of health I'd like to share from the book. The Brazilian team works their numbers and discover that sugar and oil on the grocery list was a marker of health. Did it mean sugar was healthy? And the oil was not the same kind.

It was important as a marker of behavior. It meant someone was cooking.

In rural Brazil, it meant someone was still eating the traditional diet. As bad as non-fortified flour and sugar devastated indigenous peoples who had never been "civilization sorted before" was, the addition of sugar and vegetable oil was not as bad as the researchers expected. While these things are bad, the presence of UPF overshadows everything.

It's that incredibly bad. In only thirty days of moving his body to 80% UPF, the MRI showed dramatic changes in his brain. Revamping his hormones and activating "known addiction centers." (Hey, you don't have to convince us.)

Low carb worked for Dr. Atkins in 1972, when this was just getting rolling. His heart patients stuffed themselves with real pastry, at least. Now UPF is a giant stone ball like in Indiana Jones. Crushing everything in its path.

To do Atkins, correctly, now? We can't trust the macros. We have to read the whole label because some of that is NOT THAT to our body. It explains how it can be "doing it right" on paper and yet have problems. It's like this should be bundled with Atkins to teach label reading.

Now we can figure things out. UPF is the connector that turbocharged this whole cascade of misery.

We weren't just eating too much of foods that weren't good for us. More and more, even the things we thought were good for us weren't actually food.

WereBear Sat, Jul-08-23 06:11

Another angle with my autoimmune, which comprises 50% of the drug ads I see on Youtube (the only place I see ads because they want waaaay too much for their streaming) is how UPF figures in to its dramatic rise.

Quote:
While it's true that autoimmune diseases have a genetic component, experts say genetics are insufficient to explain the rise in ANA and autoimmunity [4]. Over the years, environmental exposures—including pollutants, medications, dietary components, viral infections, and stress—have been linked to autoimmunity [4].Aug 24, 2022

Autoimmunity on the Rise

Global Autoimmune Institute
https://www.autoimmuneinstitute.org › about-autoimmune


Pollution doesn't help, but I think they are ignoring the UPF elephant in the room. When my commercial protein shake experience degraded my recovery, (and led to a plumber's visit!) I had already eliminated much of what remained in my diet.

It explains ALL the health epidemics that suddenly started rising at the same time, and pace each other.

WereBear Sat, Jul-08-23 06:14

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Thanks for this review, WearBear. It is still "on order" at our library, so I haven’t read it yet, but always take it as good news that another member of our community requested it, or the Library Purchase staff thought is worthwhile.


This is such a dramatic book the author goes out of their way to make it feel gentle. They issue no instructions, or even guidelines.

He goes out of his way to say things like "Eat as much of this stuff as you want," and even, "Please, do eat your favorite foods as you read."

I think it's an eye-opener for anyone, because I'm probably 90th percentile aware of food and I thought I knew already.

THIS would be a book I would get in paperback to make it my own lending copy to friends and family. I think it's that much of a gamechanger for people who know nothing about food or cooking.

And we know how many people that is.

deirdra Sat, Jul-08-23 16:25

Sounds like an interesting read. I'm now 170th on my library's hold list; there are 5 copies, which is promising.

Back in 1972 there wasn't any UPF on Atkins' diet except for D-Zerta (artificially sweetened gelatin dessert), which I didn't like anyways. It was and still is amazing how fast the original diet nipped in the bud cravings & food obsessions.

I rarely eat any UPF so when I do, I always notice the effects on me. Sugar/starch causes sleepiness & brain fog, sugar & wheat cause excruciating plantar fasciitis (& equivalent in hands), processed plant proteins cause extreme joint pain. I never have ANY problems when I avoid these foods. I'm starting to wonder if people are having hip & knee replacements because of pain caused by what they eat (including things like too many oxalates). A colleague with fibromyalgia is given a high-carb diet and wonders why it doesn't help. Peripheral neuropathy is considered common with aging (or is it the result of continually eating crap, including what is fed in assisted living facilites?).

For the past 30 years, even before I went LC/real food, I solved the problem of no time to cook by cooking large batches infrequently & freezing individual portions of meat, poultry, stews.

Demi Sat, Jul-08-23 23:40

Werebear et al, you may find this interview with Dr Chris van Tulleken of interest:

Quote:
Ultra-Processed People: The Science Behind Food That Isn't Food | Dr Chris van Tulleken

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRRGyy5nNlk

The BAFTA-winning broadcaster and physician joins us to reveal what ultra-processed foods are doing to your body, our society, and the planet.
Over the past 150 years, we have entered a new ‘age of eating’ where most of our calories come from an entirely novel set of substances: Ultra-Processed Foods.

Now award-winning broadcaster, practicing NHS doctor and leading academic Dr Chris van Tulleken joins Robin Ince to reveal the disastrous effects of Ultra-Processed Food on our health. UPFs are now the leading cause of early death globally and the number one cause of environmental destruction.

Ultra-Processed Food (UPF) has a long, formal scientific definition, but it can be boiled down to this: if it’s wrapped in plastic and has at least one ingredient that you wouldn’t find in your kitchen, it’s UPF.

Drawing on his own experiment of eating an 80% UPF diet for one month, Chris will explore the invention of UPF and its impact on our health and weight – from altering metabolism and appetite, to an increased risk of serious health problems like cardiovascular disease and dementia.

He will show that almost all our staple foods are ultra-processed – bread, cereal, biscuits, desserts, dairy products and condiments; explains why exercise and willpower cannot prevent obesity and ill health due to UPF; and provides solutions for individuals, policy makers and the food industry.

Revelatory, powerful and rigorously researched, Chris’s insights into Ultra-Processed Food will change how we eat forever.

Praise for Chris van Tulleken’s Ultra-Processed People:
“A wonderful and fascinating exposé … Reading this book will make you question what you eat and how it was produced.” – Michael Mosley

“If you only read one diet or nutrition book in your life, make it this one … In clear, humorous and informative prose, Chris lays out what ultra-processed food is and why it is the single greatest problem with modern diets.” – Bee Wilson

“Packed with ‘I never knew that’ moments, Ultra-Processed People is a wonderfully playful book that changed forever how I think about what I eat and why” – Hannah Fry

Chris van Tulleken has a medical degree from Oxford and a PhD in molecular virology from UCL. He is a practicing infectious diseases doctor in the NHS and an associate professor at University College London, where his research focuses on how corporations affect human health, especially in the context of nutrition. He works closely with UNICEF and the World Health Organisation on infant nutrition. As one the UK’s leading science broadcasters, Chris has won two BAFTAs for his long-running CBBC series Operation Ouch, co-presented with his twin brother Xand. Following his BBC One documentary ‘What Are We Feeding Our Kids?’ and the chart-topping podcast ‘A Thorough Examination – Addicted to Food’, Chris has become the UK’s go-to expert on UPF.

Robin Ince is the co-presenter of Radio 4’s multiple award winning The Infinite Monkey Cage. He spent 2019 appearing across the world in the Universal tour with Brian Cox – travelling from LA to Oslo, Wellington to Aberdeen and ending up in Reykjavik after shows at the 02 and Wembley Arena. Robin co-wrote How to Build a Universe (part 1) with Brian Cox and authored other works including The Importance of Being Interested – Adventures in Scientific Curiosity, and his most recent book, Bibliomaniac: An Obsessive’s Tour of the Bookshops of Britain.


JEY100 Sun, Jul-09-23 05:07

Demi, thank you so much for posting this video interview! Interesting way to start my Sunday morning. I have a few ultra process foods left in my diet, but now will even been looking askance at those… a great introduction to the book.

cotonpal Sun, Jul-09-23 05:36

When I finally figured out that a number of commonly eaten foods were making me sick I realized that the label food did not really apply to something that was in fact harming me rather than fueling my body. I relabeled them poisons which certainly helped me to avoid them. These ultra processed substances should not even be given the name food since they are doing the opposite of what foods are supposed to do, that is they poison our bodies rather than fuel them.

Demi Sun, Jul-09-23 10:36

Good to see that the book is currently the #1 general hardback book on the Sunday Times bestseller list!

Ms Arielle Sun, Jul-09-23 12:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
This looks like an interesting book. I haven’t read labels in years. That’s because I have been eating only real foods since I discovered paleo over two decades ago, that is foods that don’t need to have a label. It feels like common sense to me to not eat manufactured foods but I am aware that I am in the minority. I just prefer to feed my body foods not poisons.



Eating whole real foods is much easier than reading labels in fine print. I rarely buy packaged foods, but even plain yogurt and cottage cheese requires a label look

WereBear Mon, Jul-10-23 03:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
I rarely buy packaged foods, but even plain yogurt and cottage cheese requires a label look


An excellent point, as someone on the board knew they had an issue with carrageenan, and she didn't find it easy to avoid in dairy products. But in the interests of not leaving any stone unturned, and my health history, I'm going to have to look -- again -- at stuff I previously thought was safe.

The whole GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe) list is an ASSUMPTION. Especially for those, like me, who likely had leaky gut. I can always try something new.

It has worked for me so far. :agree:

WereBear Mon, Jul-10-23 06:07

Preliminary exploration reveals unadulterated cream cheese is a rare thing...

Now that I've gone on more of a treasure hunt than I ever expected, I can't find it in rural USA. Though I am more fortunate than most, as we have a popular resort town near enough, and they add some crucial variety to local options.

Here's the ingredients for the one I was getting, a store brand: Pasteurized Milk And Cream, Cheese Culture, Salt, Guar Gum, Carob Bean Gum

Or the even cheaper other store brand: Pasteurized milk and cream, Cheese culture, Salt, Stabilizers (carob bean and/or xanthan and/or guar gums)

However, the organic store brand was only 50% more: Organic Pasteurized Milk And Cream, Salt, Organic Carob Bean Gum, Cheese Culture.

At the health food store, it was 250% more, and these were the ingredients: Organic Pasteurized Milk And Cream, Organic Whey, Cheese Culture, Salt, Organic Locust Bean Gum.

I get to upgrade to the organic store brand, and feel grateful for the fancy store :lol:

Carob/locust bean gums are the same thing. And being from plants means they can be considered an organic ingredient, it seems. Because, according to this useful article on "Food GUMS":

Quote:
Natural Gums Healthier than Cellulose Gum or Carrageenan
One positive about gum additives such as xanthan, guar, locust bean (carob), gellan, and tara is their superiority to the similarly used additive carrageenan.

Also commonly used and in a wide variety of processed foods even USDA Organic, carrageenan is a suspected carcinogen that should be avoided as much as possible. It is heavily used in pet food too!

These various gums also appear to be clearly superior to polysorbate 80 and carboxymethyl cellulose (often known as cellulose gum) and other industrial emulsifiers and thickeners.

If you are choosing between one brand that uses carrageenan, cellulose gum, or polysorbate 80 and another brand that uses any of the gum additives below, choose the brand with one of the gums below. It will be of higher quality in most cases.


And there's THIS:

Quote:
This is problematic for consumers with allergies. For example, residual wheat gluten has been discovered in xanthan gum produced using wheat.
And manufacturers don't tell you what medium is used to make it.

Which is welcome news and I'm going to roll with it. Since cream cheese is a staple of my diet, as the only fermented animal fat I can find, this is greatly reassuring. Against all odds, I have found a GUM I can feel soothed by consuming:

Quote:
Compared to xanthan, locust bean gum is much better tolerated by infants. A study published by the World Journal of Clinical Pediatrics found that infants tolerate carob-bean gum thickened formulas extremely well even those with reflux.

The locust bean gum enhanced formula successfully increased the bodyweight of the babies in the study as well. The Journal of Regulatory Toxicology and Pharmacology concluded further that locust bean gum is safe for its intended therapeutic use in full-term infants to treat uncomplicated reflux.


It seems that safer gums have been substituted in some products, thanks to studies. The only warnings seems to be from over-consuming any "gum" as a diet trick, using fiber to give them volume. Which does sound like a terrible idea. :lol:

deirdra Mon, Jul-10-23 20:58

"cheese cultures" are defined as groups of bacteria, but now I wonder - what are/were they grown on?

Ms Arielle Mon, Jul-10-23 21:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
An excellent point, as someone on the board knew they had an issue with carrageenan, and she didn't find it easy to avoid in dairy products. But in the interests of not leaving any stone unturned, and my health history, I'm going to have to look -- again -- at stuff I previously thought was safe.

The whole GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe) list is an ASSUMPTION. Especially for those, like me, who likely had leaky gut. I can always try something new.

It has worked for me so far. :agree:


I've been training DH as he buys food at end of shift at WM. Cottage cheese brands vary significantly. Its shocking some have junk added. Just not necessary. We found only one cottage cheese labeled" milk, culture, salt ". Carrageenan can be avoided in cream by buying organic.

GRAS no longer means safe, IMHO, and selecting better foods will always be a chore. I'm finding having a garden reduces the stress.....no herbicides or pesticides. Dairy, Im not ready to jump into that. Though I do need to carve out time to visit a local non pasteurized dairy producer( that regularly deals with the state) and make my own dairy products. This doesn't mean organic. Just one step closer.


Do recheck labels!! I had found a new organic local butter and when i checked its labelling, no mention of organic grassfed. The company had been sold!! And new ownership changed the goodness to crap. I was extremely disappointed. Everyone cuts corners, even kerrygold has a problem in the packaging for butter sent to US. Packaging is fine and meets better codes for other countries. Its the US, send junk here. 😀 Our food quality rules are lax when the important aspects are scrutinized. Read those labels!!

JEY100 Tue, Jul-11-23 01:15

Cream cheese…avoid the gums by finding it "spreadable" in a tub. Nancy's brand has been recommended…it is hard for me to find locally. They will list a store on "locator" but that store will only carry their yogurt, or cottage cheese, or be "out". Think it is a cult secret brand. :lol:

If you want a block, it will have something to keep it together on a shelf, one of the gum stabilizers. Trader Joe's and Whole Foods lists all three as options.

WereBear Tue, Jul-11-23 02:19

There was one tub, Philadelpha brand, with these ingredients: Pasteurized Milk And Cream, Skim Milk, Whey Protein Concentrate, Whey, Modified Food Starch, Salt, Carob Bean Gum, Xanthan Gum, Guar Gum, Lactic Acid, Natamycin (a Natural Mold Inhibitor), Vitamin A Palmitate, Cheese Culture.

And I'm not big on Modified Food Starch. That was a red flag from the book, because we only know it's not food and maybe didn't start as a starch...

Organic has some meaning, it's true. I have to return two cartons of heavy cream with carrageenan in them. I rarely buy Hannaford house brand cream, only when Aldi is out, but I won't fail to read a label again. Because one burp in the stock market and they will change their recipe.

WereBear Tue, Jul-11-23 02:33

This also opened up a larger question. The book defined a food without UPF would be made from scratch, at home. Which is what I'm buying the cream cheese for. But there are practical considerations when it comes to milk storage, apparently, and distribution. Industrial ice cream production started with "what are we going to do with all this milk about to go bad?" Make it into a form that can be frozen.

Which cream cheese cannot. But sealed and refrigerated, it does have a longer shelf life than milk. Fresh still means local, and we do have a goat farm who makes cheese. We'll have to take a drive out there.

I still won't drink goat milk, since it has a reputation of being "goaty" and that element, all fans agree, is missing from their cheeses :)

WereBear Tue, Jul-11-23 02:51

Now I'm on a tear. The new cat favorite food will have to go. Carrageenan!

JEY100 Tue, Jul-11-23 03:56

Watch out when WearBear is on a tear.
When you find the perfect cat food for a big, ginger boy, on the "fluffy side" let me know. PS: I will not be making it from scratch. :lol:

Ms Arielle Tue, Jul-11-23 05:45

"There was one tub, Philadelpha brand, with these ingredients: Pasteurized Milk And Cream, Skim Milk, Whey Protein Concentrate, Whey, Modified Food Starch, Salt, Carob Bean Gum, Xanthan Gum, Guar Gum, Lactic Acid, Natamycin (a Natural Mold Inhibitor), Vitamin A Palmitate, Cheese Culture."

Natamycin. We should all scream about this new addition!!!! I avoid this. Its an antibiotic!!

Homemade cream cheese is very easy. Whole milk plus lemon juice. Added salt optional.

Cat food. We find that by raising and butchering our own meat animals the dog eats more real food. Lots of bits and scraps easier to feed off than pack up for freezer. Cats benefit from real meat more than dogs.....taurine is critical for cats. Found in dark poultry, heart and.....liver, I think. Needs double checking on the liver.

Bet carrageenan is driven by customers opening a can where juices drip out. Just messy!! Canned cat food without the added grains is a far better choice.

JEY100 Tue, Jul-11-23 05:56

Believe our HOA would have something to say about us raising meat animals and butchering them on our lawn. :lol: :lol:

WearBear had a recipe on her Cat website, even that was a bit much for me making a batch of innards indoors. ;)

WereBear Tue, Jul-11-23 11:47

Thanks for visiting, JEY!

I feed my cats mostly commercial canned. I pay mid-range because the expensive gourmet stuff they won't touch, and lately they won't eat the lowest range, either. When well I do supplement this, with simmered cheap meats. We even have a butcher in the next town, now. But while I have more energy lately, I don't have enough for everything.

Today I'm restarting with bulk canned chicken and tuna from discount outlets. This is people grade food I'd eat myself, though with stuff like tapioca and rice starch. Still a marked reduction, I'm sure.

Right now I'm mixing it with their canned foods, and will gradually decrease the cat food while I get a vitamin mix designed to be added to meat.

Pet food gets increasingly expensive and not-worth-it, especially since a favorite will change their formula and now I have cans to donate to the shelter. I want the cats to get increasingly used to the taste of actual food. I'm thinking the cats have the same problem as we do, since the industry is putting this in all the pet food, too. It might be cheaper.

The dry food is always a problem, but it's also a comfort food and a staple in rescue so we get the best grain-free/low starch from a local outlet. It means a cat never faces an empty bowl, which can make them stress eat.

Science-wise, we have two stations, and I'll leave the downstairs one as usual. Mr WayofCats has a very low pestering threshold. And there would be pestering, heartfelt beseeching eyes following us everywhere at the very least.

Then, they choose. It's a Davis experiment, as described in the book. Will they choose the high quality commercial product? Or will they go for the food closer to their instincts when it is offered?

I await the results with interest.

Verbena Tue, Jul-11-23 13:27

“Homemade cream cheese is very easy. Whole milk plus lemon juice. Added salt optional.“

If you can find whole milk yogurt without additives let it drain through cheesecloth or light muslin overnight - as for making Greek yogurt, but longer. It makes a perfectly adequate cream cheese substitute. Mix in some sour cream if you want it creamier. Daisy is a brand of sour cream without additives.
Save the whey for smoothies.

WereBear Wed, Jul-12-23 09:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verbena
“Homemade cream cheese is very easy. Whole milk plus lemon juice. Added salt optional.“

If you can find whole milk yogurt without additives let it drain through cheesecloth or light muslin overnight - as for making Greek yogurt, but longer. It makes a perfectly adequate cream cheese substitute. Mix in some sour cream if you want it creamier. Daisy is a brand of sour cream without additives.
Save the whey for smoothies.


That's right! I used to do that. Good to remember, thanks.

WereBear Wed, Jul-12-23 09:38

Success! It was only yesterday that I started my Davis experiment about upgrading my cat's food, and already I see signs that someone is eating more of the real chicken than they are the cat food I sorta mixed in. Then, this morning, I opened a can of the scorned Reveal cat food that has no additives... and our biggest cat wasn't sure... and then chowed down.

Now I have a cat food I can serve, plus the canned meat/vitamin mix. Will give them variety, which I am a big fan of. Also, my little runt girl kitten ate up all the dessicated dry called Orijen I left out overnight, then let me know the bowl was empty. When I refilled it, I was stopped. Okay, she does want the Brewer's yeast on it. I do that to make sure they get enough B vitamins.

Maybe she likes the taste. Maybe she's doing intuitive eating.

Ms Arielle Wed, Jul-12-23 11:27

Congrats on getting better food into kitties!!

I remember a new kitty to our house and while sitting on couch offered a bite of chicken to cat behind me , on back of couch. I didn't look, just kept reading a book, holding out treat to tempt this feral cat. Kitty bit my finger, drawing blood. Me bad. Cat didnot understand yet working around fingers, just took a bite of chicken, lol. That is when I realized how much interaction with animals, esp ferals, are learned. Ferals need experience to fit in comfortably. Like chicken vs fingers. Lol

Ms Arielle Wed, Jul-12-23 11:40

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Believe our HOA would have something to say about us raising meat animals and butchering them on our lawn. :lol: :lol:

WearBear had a recipe on her Cat website, even that was a bit much for me making a batch of innards indoors. ;)


More people are getting back to basics but usually move to the country first. Others do what they can. ...

Some folks use the garage to hide the butchering! 😂

Others keep hens in their house...no kidding.....chicken diapers for pet chickens and use the eggs. One lady let her house- hens perch on sound bar during TV time.

Truly, I like having a private zone in the woods without prying eyes. Avoids nosey neighbors. An HOA, imho, is too limiting.

Improving the diet of my chickens led to improving my own. Most recently, taurine is important for all of us, not just the cats. If you can tolerate heart and liver.... 😆

WereBear Wed, Jul-12-23 13:24

Hearts and livers are something I used to be able to buy in the grocery store! In little tubs.

I used to help a friend's mother make her chicken liver & chestnut appetizers on toothpicks. They were good!


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