Atkins? I dont get it. I follow a genetic diet.
 

I dont really understand the preoccupation with dieting. There is really no need to diet.

You just need to ask yourself a simple common sense question.

Who is are closest genetic relative in the mammal family?

What does there intestinal tract look like?

What do they eat?

What does the intestinal tract of a meat eating mammal look like?

What do they eat?

Which most resembles my in physiology and genetic make up?

The closest human relative on the genetic tree is the Chimp.
99.8 percent genetic match

The have a long intestinal tract very much like the human one.

They mostly eat high fiber complex carbs, with a fairly minimal amount of protien. Mostly nuts and seed and ants.

High protien meating eating mammals have short intestinal tracts and a very highly acidic stomach to digest the protien, both things humans lack.

We are most like Chimps so are diet should me more like a chimps and less like a tigers. Milk should also be left out of the diet as we are the only species who continues to go for the teet after we learn to eat real food. Bizzare really when u think about it. If you couldnt buy it in the store you would be down on your knees under a cow.

No big mystery here.

Diets also do not work because thier is a high degree of biodifferentation in the needs of the micro and macro nutrients between people. Unless you have a work up done by someone trained in this, you dont know exatcly what ratio you need, But a super high protien diet just does not make any sense genetically for most people.

I welcome others thoughts on this.

VegieMax

Gee Max I guess U dont understand the problem millions of people encounter which is carb addiction and insulin ressistance. Most of us didnt realize we should be following a "chimps" diet?...what we are trying to do is get back to where we began.. how the caveman ate. It wasnt until the introduction of sugar and refined flours that there was such a thing as an obese problem. I am no expert..but I have done my research and based on how I feel this is definitely the way for me to eat. I have fibromyalgia and had been sick for many yrs. Since changing my eating habits I am slim. healthy and dont require meds anymore. Now I do agree with U that diets dont work.....diets tend to imply a quick fix weight loss. What low-carbing is teaching is that IF U eat this way the rest of your life your weight and health will remain in good shape...so to speak.

I do understand insulin ressistance and carb addiction. I went through major withdrawls when I eliminated simple sugars from my diet.

The chimp vs. tiger is more than analogy it is a matter of physiology. Our bodies are simply not designed to ingest large quantities of protien. We dont have the cutting teeth for it, not the proper ph in our stomachs, nor the correct intestinal tract.

If you want a healthier way of starting ketotsis in your body then supervised fasting is a better solution in my opinion.

I find also that this whole 3 square meals a day is more of a industrial revolution idea to make sure you could work around your meal times than anything else. Humans were foragers for much of their evolution and hence ate many times a day. I would say 5 or 6 small meals a day, not 2 which is the norm now. This keeps your metabolism up and makes for a very steady insulin curve.

Just my two cents, yes im a vegetarian, no im not perfect. Im glad you have lost whatever weight you wanted to. Now that you have maybe is a good time to take a closer look.

VegieMax

chimps don't eat meat??
 

I hate to be the one to tell you this Max...but chimps DO eat meat, actually a chimp community can consume up 1 tons of meat annually...hard to believe isn't it? They eat other monkeys!!! If I'm expected to eat what my closest ancestors eat...no thank you, I've read Fit for Life...wasn't for me :)

I can respect your opinion but I still think U are missing the point. 1st of all if being a vegetarian works for U then great!... If we werent meant to eat meat then how come the originators of our species ate mostly meat?? I have tried many many different "diets" even did a stint eating no meat. But I have never felt as good as I do now and I know I have never been healthier. How come it is if someone has high blood pressure and high levels of the bad cholestoral that once they start low-carbing their levels go to a more normal state? Im sure low-carbing isnt for absolutely everyone. I also know I speak for the hundreds of people that use this forum that for us it is the only way to live a healthy life.

The originators or our species were not the caveman.......If you look at a time line of our species that was a foot long the caveman would occupy about half a centimeter of that timeline.

The majority of our evolution was spent eating what I refered to in the previous post.

I dont argue that a high protien diet and i do mean as in short term diet can have positive short term effects. But the fact of the matter is that a high protien, low complex carb diet is not what are bodies are designed for.

I wont belabor the point, the evidence is without and within.

VegeMax

Only intent was to foster a little thought.

Raina - the amount of protein chimps eat is miniscule compared to what the average american eats. I did not say they dont eat meat only that the ration is wildly different than the track we are on, and Atkin recommends.

VegieMax

MAX
 

Please tell me why you would join a low carb BB, when obviously all you want to do is insult, annoy, and badmouth what we are trying to do? Again why take the time out of your day to do this, 160-160-160 PLEASE! (go some where else to make trouble) :q:

Hi VegieMax,

Welcome to our forum.

If I take the chimps analogy, I'd say yes, going back to eating what chimps eat, will help us de-evolve to mere chimps. :)

Wa'il

Sorry I thought a lively discussion was what bulliten boards were for. I dont remember insulting anyone. The Atkins diet is a fairly good way to lose weight, I just question its long term benefits.

All ideologies are strengthened by testing. Its only when ideologies become dogmas that your should start to worry.

I have no agenda except to make you think and question. If after doing so you come to the same conclusion, then Im certainly not gonna argue with you. Its your body you do what you want to it.

I joined the board to spark a little discussion. I am no expert on Atikins, maybe there is something im missing as well. Thats what discussion is for.

VegieMax

hu hu hu he he he.....wheres my banana :)

VegieMax

VegieMax as a vegetarian, you can still eat major quantities of protein, just not in animal form. Those of us with specific health problems NEED to limit our carb intake, and that is what the research shows. The carbs we do eat should be complex, high fiber. You said you cut out sugars and flour. I don't think we are so far apart here in our way of thinking. I think we need to remember that not every is the same and something works differently for all of us. Let's happy up here, that WILL make us all healthier. :there:

Hmmm, if you can point to medical study proving this, I'd like to see it. This sounds more like Weight-Watchers and SlimFast results, and most of us here have followed them.



Hmm, if so, why do our bodies mange to find all the enzymes that perfectly breaks down all the protein, and when we lack protein, we lose muscles?



Which evidence? I replied earlier to the chimps "evidence". It's hard to find any specific diet backed up by medical and biochemical research support than low-carb diets.

I'm not putting your theory down, in as much as I'm trying to help you look for more scientific foundation to what you are doing, to better asses it's benefits, let alone counselling others .

Research is a better argument than feelings and assumptions.

Wa'il

I've always believed that what separated the chimps from Man is a couple hundred thousand mastadon steaks. Protein develops brain power as well as muscles :)


I respect anyone's eating style, although I certainly wouldn't go to a vegetarian board and start lecturing everyone about how they should be eating meat. But I think one should look to the differences as well as the similarities -- and, more importantly, as has been said, rely on scientific data. :)

None of us are dieting.

Our bodies are realizing their ideal weights because we have decided to be kinder and stop feeding them crap.

This isn't rocket science.

Id be happy to put some research abstracts together. What exactly is it you would like to know or for me to support? Granted it will take time to compile and in not sure the admin would want it posted.

I would welcome meat eaters to a vegetarian board as long as the research they sited was not commissioned by the Beef Council. Even then it would make for a lively discusion.

I stand by the chimp statement - they are our closest genetic relative. Ive never seen an overweight chimp in the wild.

The reason we have the enzymes to break down meat protien is the same reason we have the enzymes to break down plant protien. People forget there is protien in all vegetable matter, even fruits. And no low or should i say genetically correct protien levels do not cause muscle wasting, thats a myth.

One thought I did have is that the Atkins diet maybe helpfull in the short run because it is allowing time for the insulin receptors to relax in the absence of high insulin levels brought on by eating simple sugars. That is a good thing, following it up with a diet that does not match our genetic predisposition is a matter for discussion.

VegieMax

By the way I think the admin has done a masterfull job on this website. Its really a model of community building on the web. As well as an obviously good profit model.

VegieMax

Any of your claims :) Any study on harm, or short term only benefits of low-carbing.


I am the admin :) So no worries, we love studies and research, and publish counter arguments all the time.



Great, pass me the URL. I have about 10 good studies not comissioned by the beef council. Remember the issue of sponsors as well when you brings us studies for short-tern benefits of low-carbing :)


So, I was hoping for a response other than "ha ha" to the de-evolution argument. :)

Nor have I seen overweight wild meat eating humans. Which fairly more documented for hunters gatherers than evolving vegetarian chimps in the wild.


O.k. so you're no longer against protein, just to a specific amount, I guess?


Short term again. So what long-term harm is there by not having high insulin levels?



Sure, but so far the only evidence to this "genetic dispossiition" I read from you was "ha ha." You can't blame someone for questioning that argument. :)

Wa'il

Why thank you. Wanna transfer your stocks from WW, or SlimFast to us?

Wa'il

It's true that subsistence protein can be derived from a diet of fruits, nuts and the occasional insect ... and certainly more than enough carbohydrate ... what's missing here is FATS. Yes, nuts and oily fruits can provide short-chain fatty acids. But the long-chain essential fatty acids -- EPA (eicosapentanoic acid) and DHA (docosahexanoic acid) specifically ... are found pre-formed in nature only in animal-source fat. Long chain fatty acids are the chief constituents of our brains and nerve cells. The fact that the human brain, in particular the cerebral cortex, has evolved to be much larger in proportion than chimps indicates the human need for long-chain fatty acids is also greater.

Humans can synthesize DHA from plant-based alpha-linolenic acid (ALA or LNA), but the process is inefficient and incomplete. It's bioligically simpler to acquire DHA directly from animal-source fat. In fact humans are born lacking the desaturase enzymes necessary for the conversion of plant-based fatty acids -- human-breast milk is necessarily rich in pre-formed DHA. As well, a substantial percentage of human adults are deficient in these enzymes. This suggests that the ability to synthesize DHA (and EPA) from plant-based fatty acids is not part of natural human evolution. Rather, it's an inefficient survival adaptation to the lack of pre-formed long-chain fatty acids from animal sources.

It's interesting to note that early humans were scavengers before they were actually hunters. There's much evidence to show that the leftover kill from some other predator provided early humans with much-prized nutrition. Specifically, they were able to bash open the skull to get the brain, and whack and scrape off the ends of the long bones of the limbs to get the marrow, both of which are the richest sources of -- you guessed it -- DHA.

Doreen

Comparing the human and chimpanzee intestinal tracts - indeed, they are somewhat proportional in length, but that's where the similarity ends. They differ widely in structure, function and bacterial environment.

In humans, the small intestine is where nearly all digestion of food and absorption of nutrients takes place, and takes up 56 - 67% of gut volume. Whereas in chimps the small intestine is only 23 - 38% of total gut volume. For chimps, the large intestine or colon is where much of the breakdown of food and absorption takes place. Since the diet of chimps is primarily high-fiber fruits and vegetative matter .. the small intestine isn't able to break down the fiber to yield energy or nutrients. But, the large intestine of chimps is highly specialized .. and is proportionally longer than humans, and also more convolutions, creating more internal surface area for absorption. The bacterial flora is also different. The chief function of this is fermentation ... the chimp's large intestine is designed for bacterial fermentation of fiber, to break it down into simple saccharide sugars that are absorbed and used for energy. Humans have some slight fermentative capability, but it's not efficient and in general, fiber is undigested and passed out of the body.

Doreen

Here is a graphical representation of the evolution of the digestive tracts of primates, and the dominant digestive organ of each.

.

I wonder what it is that's been helpful to me in the long run then? Hmmm.

Let's see. I'm not on any medications, I'm healthier than I've been in years, a significant of non-weight related ailment has practically vanished (RLS), I'm more motivated, energized, stable, than ever before. My blood pressure (both readings) and heart beat are steady just slightly below average. I can run 6 km now and I've never been able to run 1/2 mile in my life before now. I don't even breathe hard. I can lift heavier weights than I ever have been able to before. All my cholesterol readings are right on. My blood sugar is reliably even.

Have I mentioned I celebrate 2 years on Atkins in a few short days? I resemble a wild chimp NOW more that EVER :D

Gee - so far your arguments just don't make me wanna change my eating habits.

Nice chart, Doreen - great debate rebuttals, Wa'il. The good news is I hit another all time low today. :thup:

Ok, I've lost track. This is a vegetarian board. Are we for or against eating meat, and are we for or against low carb. :confused:

Perhaps you've forgotten that humans have been separated by about 4.2 million years from any chimp-like relatives. The last humanoid strain with vegan dentition (Australopithecus boisei - had molars about 4x the size of modern man, and no dramatic incisor/canine profile) died out sometime after 1.8 million years ago, though it co-existed with other human species at the time. Every other tool-making hominid before or since has eaten some amount of meat in their diets on a normal basis - that's shown in bone caches, tooth wear, clothing and the tools that they used.

If you have a problem with eating meat, that's great. I sympathize (though I'm allergic to nuts and soy, so I have to get protein from other means). Just don't come in here with a *moral* objection to meat-eating that you've tried to prove with science. Science doesn't work that way.

The Vegetarian forum was set up specifically for those lowcarbers who choose to not eat meat .. and while there aren't a huge number of members posting, there is a lot of useful, respectful information, helpful tips and links. We moved this particular discussion from the Vegetarian forum because it's more appropriate in the Research interest area.

This debate is not about being for or against meat. THAT is a personal choice, which I totally respect. And that's the point .. we as humans have the cerebral capacity, and the physical opportunity to make choices .. based on personal belief systems, moral, ethical or spiritual .. or physical preference. But the argument that we have evolved biologically to eat only fruits and similar ready-to-pluck-and-eat vegetation or insect cannot be proven .. in fact the extensive research I've done shows that humans have evolved with the ability to derive nutrition from both animal and plant sources. The fact that we have the capacity to choose should be celebrated :)

One interesting piece I read about long-term observations of chimp societies showed that chimps will eat animals not because that's all there is to eat .. but in PREFERENCE to fruits and vegetation. They live on fruits because that's the most abundant, and easy to procure food that's available. If they come upon an insect or grub .. yay, nummers ... the bug is eaten in preference. Chimps are opportunistic, just as humans are .. and if the opportunity arises to kill a small animal or they happen upon the leftover kill of some predator -- even if the trees are sagging to the ground with ripe fruits -- they will choose to eat that in preference. Observers report that an animal-kill ... in particular the brain and glandular organs .. are deemed to be a PRIZE, and much squabbling and asserting of the social order as to who gets to indulge and when.

Doreen

ok vegiemax?
got that??

hmmmm.... point is....

WE ARE HUMANS, NOT CHIMPS,OK?

i could make a joke here about someone being a CHUMP, but i wont.

as soon as you have compiled the "scientic evidence" that we should eat the same diet as a chimpanzee, please post it.

Some evolutionists may THINK we are "related" to chimps. But it depends on what you are looking at. If we go by certian enzymes we're more closely related to a chicken than a chimp. Remember, evolution is a theory, not a fact.

I personally believe we are not in the animal kingdom at all. For one thing, who invented chocolate? man or beast?? I rest my case.... ;)


Nellie

Hmm. If my dogs could talk, they would have told me how to invent butter and cheese! ;)

Karen

:D
Hi, everybody!
Gee, I love a good debate (argument), If eating meat is so bad for me why has my blood pressure gone back to the way it was when I was 17(I'm 54)? Why am I losing weight and feeling better than I have ever felt in my entire life? Why do I have so much energy? Why does canola oil have so many poisons in it? Why does hydrogenated oil cause cancer and (from the latest studies...scientific, I might add...not sponsored by the beef counsel...) quite possibly lead to so many autoimmune disorders? Why is grain full of the same things that cause autoimmune disorders? Why is soy a poison? Why are fava beans, lima beans, and soy beans toxic when eaten raw? Why are the nightshades so bad for us? Gee, I want to eat all the vegan foods, but I really don't want to die of some disease caused by eating most of what they eat. I get it, let's all eat fruit, berries, leafy green veggies, and a bug or two and see how well we prosper...really long life? NOT! Sorry...I am not a chimp and my ancestors haven't been "chimplike" in about 15 million years, last time I checked. A lot can happen in 15 million years.

hehehehehe
 

i cut and pasted this in my diary

so funny.