confused and scared to eat fat.
 

i have read the posts on fat and found them very interesting, but my experience has been very mixed.

at first, i lost wieght and then it went up and over my weight before dieting.

i ate enough fat back then, i loved to eat cheese with mayonaise as dip.... (still love it)

i stopped that and my mom tells me i still shouldnt eat that much fat.

so now i grill all my food with the forman grill, to let all the oil drip out. and then put them on paper towel to absorb all the extra oil.....

:confused:

Hi Silence, and firstly welcome to the Active lowcarber forum.

I understand how confusing it is to hear that fat is OK to eat, when all your life you have been indoctrinated to believe that fat is bad and unsafe to eat, and will make you fat, as well as give you other health problems.

Initially, it will have to be an act of faith that you are not doing something dangerous, and harmful to your health. But there is a lot of supporting evidence which you can look up to back up what we say. I have two really important things to say to you in a moment, but first of all look around the forum at the amount of weight people have lost on this way of eating. In my own case, I have lost more than 70 pounds. It really works!

And now for the important statements:

(1) In the absence of carbohydrates, fat is not fattening . This is really important to understand. Fat will be fattening, if you are eating more than about 40 grams of carbohydrate per day. So you have to eliminate virtually all carbs from your diet. Then you can safely eat fat, without putting on weight.

(2) Eating fat does not make you fat. In fact, the reverse is true. It is the fat in your diet which attacks and disposes of your body fat. It is also fat that stops you feeling hungry. But in eating fat, you need to do two other very important things. Firstly, drink vast amounts of water. Some people here drink 5 litres of it per day. Secondly, you have to eat enough calories, or else the system fails. "Enough" calories is usually 10-12 times your current body weight. This is very important, and something many people do wrong, especially newcomers, who have been told all their lives that to lose weight you have to eat less. This, as you have probably already found out yourself, does not work, because you can eat very little, and still gain weight - if what you are eating is carbohydrates.

OK, I can talk all night about theory. Be brave enough to do this experiment. Try it out for just one week. In that time, cut down all your carbohydrates to just 20 or 30 grams per day (and that is very little indeed). Eat unrestricted protein and fat. Then tell me after a week how your weight compares and how you feel. Better still, get all the tests done first: cholesterol, triglycerides, etc etc. And then get them re-tested after say 3 months. The results should convince you that this way of eating is safe and beneficial.

And tell your mother that if your results prove she is right, you will heed her advice, but for now you want to test out this way of eating and see if it works for you - after all her advice has not made you slim,has it?

Andy

it is really confusing..lol I'm still scared to eat it...But think about it this way....When you wern't eating fat did you lose weight?..
I'm guessing not...and you were probley eating alot of carbs...Think about it..lol

Hey, if your still scared your gonna gain weight...Do what I do, weigh yourself everyday just to make sure the scale isn't going up..lol...It wont, as long as ya do it in the morning before any food or waters in you..lol :roll: :roll:

Andy's Post
 

Hi Andy...

What a post that was...ty for all the info. Sometimes the stuff in the book can be confusing..you just kind of laid it all out there for us all...

Thank you very much.. :)

Laura

Hi Laura,

Well, it did feel rather like giving birth to an elephant, but you're welcome. And I'm glad you found it useful.

Andy

I believe we have another Ernest Hemmingway in our midst. ;)

OUCH!!

:daze:

Doreen

Why eating fat does NOT make you fat with low-carbing
 

Actually, to take the fact one step further (it's no theory .. this is firmly established in science and FACT ;)) .. it is the absence of INSULIN that makes this possible.

Insulin is required to assist glucose to enter the cells to be used for fuel. If there's more glucose than is required at the moment, then insulin will cause it to be stored as FAT. It will also cause any excess fat from the diet to be stored as fat, since it's not required as fuel (there's already too much glucose). Another role of insulin is to inhibit fat-burning. It prevents the fat cells from releasing their fat stores (both as a biological "conservation" mechanism, and to prevent the fat from competing with glucose as a fuel source).

When you restrict carbohydrates in your diet, you effectively reduce the amount of insulin produced, as your body switches over to burning ketones for fuel instead of glucose. Without so much insulin floating around, your fat cells will be able to release stored fat more easily. Without so much insulin floating around, the fat you EAT will not be stored as fat either.

So what happens to the fat you eat?? Well, some will be used in the repair and structure of cell walls throughout the body, and to make vital hormones. Some may used for energy. The rest is WASTED. That's right, wasted. The fat you eat is broken down into fatty acids in the bowel, by the action of enzymes and bile. These fatty acids are absorbed into the bloodstream and taken to the liver, where they are further processed ... into ketones, and into other fatty acid components. Some of the ketones may be used for fuel. Mostly they are excreted in the urine, stool and breath (via the lungs). Unused free fatty acid components are also excreted. Why?? Because once fatty acids are broken down into the smaller ketone, acetone and fatty esterols .. they CANNOT be converted back into fat. That's basic Biochemistry 101. Without insulin, they cannot be forced into storage in the fat cells. So they are eliminated. This is what Atkins refers to as the "Metabolic Advantage".

My explanation is very simplistic .. there's more involved, such as the release of glucagon from the pancreas, etc ... If you're truly curious about this, we had an excellent discussion a few months ago on this subject. You can read about it starting here .. it's a long thread, with lots of lofty discussion :read:

What does this have to do with calories and eating fat? Well, when you're wasting fat, you're wasting the potential energy (ie the calories) that it would otherwise provide. Lets look at a sample day's intake:

• 20g carbs (80 calories)
  120g protein (480 calories)
  120g fat (1080 calories)
  total calories = 1660, and 65% of that is fat calories.

However, research shows that by the process of wasting fatty acids, as I described above .. the actual caloric contribution of dietary fat, in the absence of insulin is only about half, or roughly 5 calories per gram. Given that knowledge, lets have another look at the sample day's intake:

• 20g carbs (80 calories)
  120g protein (480 calories)
  120g fat (approx. 600 calories)
  total calories = 1180, of which 51% comes from fat.

There is plenty of evidence to show that consistently eating below a certain caloric level will result in the slowing of the metabolic rate, as an adaptive "survival" mecanism. The body thinks it's starving, so it turns the thermostat down to conserve fuel. Your engines will run on less and less. In other words the less you eat on a continual basis, the less you will NEED on a permanent basis. This will only work against you in the long run, making it increasingly difficult to lose fat weight, and also making it easier to GAIN fat if you return to a carbohydrate & insulin-based way of eating. So eat up, and especially eat FAT :)

The other question is how does eating fat stimulate the burning of BODY fat?? Well, it acts like kindling. It primes the liver into fat-burning and ketone-production mode. Once this ketone production is in full swing, and the dietary fat is used up, the liver starts looking for more source of fat to process. It turns to your body fat stores :cool:.

Hope this is helpful,

Doreen

Wow! Thanks Doreen, looks like this forum is going to be awash with baby elephants before long!

Andy

Wow!
 

Andy and Doreen! I have just had my eyes opened!! I began LC'ing only one short week ago, on the advice of my father, and just put blind faith in him that it would work. I've always understood the theory behind ketosis (I used to be low-fat dieting naysayer! :o )

Now I really honestly understand what really is going on. And I have been wondering where the fat went, but didn't want to ask!

Thanks both!!

I love learning more and more about this wonderful way of life!

Cheers!

Dizzy D
:wave:

Doreen and Andy, what fabulous, informative posts! Thank you so much! I have the book, but as a Newbie, your posts gave me sooo much more information as to what is happening in my body! I was explaining the process to a girlfriend of mine today, attempting to share how this all worked, I wish I had read your posts first!

Thank you again!

I've been eating fat for the past seven months on Atkins but I was afraid of fat too, until this week. I've been reading The Schwarzbein Principle and she's made me afraid NOT to eat fat. Apparently fat is essential in countless metabolic processes and if you don't get enough you'll have osteoporosis, low levels of sex hormones, high LDL cholesterol, arterial plaquing, and on and on.

I'm not following her program but recommend the book. :thup:

By the way, welcome! :wave:

Allison

ahaha, thank you guys!
 

it is so hard to keep good faith when every thing around me is telling me no. and i read books that say atkin's diet and other low carb diets are just fad diets....

so i should not grill my food on the foreman grill then? or should i grill it and then drink the fat? lol

i have been eating low carb for 8 months and i havent lost, i v gained! :eek:

Are you tracking what you eat?

Try doing this - set up a journal (if you don't already have one) in the My Journal / Bootcamp forum group and for at least one week track everything you eat and drink. Be careful not to change your eating habits. Report them there. Then the folks here can look over your intake and spot any LC killers that might be sneaking in.

We'll try to get you through this.

Andy and Doreen, those posts were excellent, and reminded me of my own need to get back to "basics" and out of this stall.

Silence,
Use the foreman grill if you like, just don't paper towel the fat off, and don't trim your meat heavily. Leaving the fat on while cooking the meat improves the flavor significantly, and adds moisture so you're not eating some gross, dry hunk of meat. Feel free to eat chicken with the SKIN ON, all crispy - yummmm!

I can attest to this WOE - look at my stats - and, I have been playing around with adding some carbs back in my diet - guess what? Stalled right out. Losing weight/fat by eating protein and fat while avoiding carbohydrates works.

Shalom,
Sh'ra

cool!
 

i will do that! i am gonna go post a journal in the bootcamp, please come check it out some time :D

Now I get it!!
 

Thanks so much for the links, they helped immensely!!! I'm showing this to my hubby asap - he's LC'ing because I am, but he doesn't "believe" in it to the degree I do ;)

Who Knew!
 

Wow I followed a path of links in others journals and found this post. Thanks everyone responsible!!! To be honest I had not even noticed the "Best of" forum before.
I had been sitting at 193 since the end of January. I started back on Atkins at the beginning of January. I had an initial loss of about 17 lbs, and then stalled! I did not worry too much about this as I am being patient and felt better, but when I took a look at my calorie intake at Fitday it appeared that I was not eating enough. I am not a calorie counter and I was not hungry at all and I was surprised that my intake was so low. I realized after reading this post that the only way to boost my calories was to get more fat. So that is what I did in the form of butter, olive oil, and heavy cream so far!
Now, I am just recuperating from some abdominal surgey last Friday but I weighed in at the hospital at 196 :eek:
I am glad to report that this morning I weighed in at 187 :D. I will change my stats next week just to make sure, but I would like to report that I have more energy and I am feeling great.
Upping the FAT really has helped!
For anyone who thinks it would be the surgery, I am one of those people that usually gain weight at the hospital!!

ya know one thing that worries me about LCing is the constant battle to prevent constipation ( sorry I had to say it )


I take psyllium husk powder every morning with a protien shake and sometimes I add it to a high protien frostie

I t just strikes me that if I was not LCing I would not be worrying about this and it concerns me that I need to take the occasional senna tablets to go :confused:

does anyone relate to this ?

Watned this post to come to the front again!!!

My experience will LCing has made me more regular than I have ever been. From the beginning I set out to find some low-carb foods with fibre and I discovered pecans: low carb, high fibre, good fat.

My body's experience with fat follows what Doreen explaing earlier in this thead. It is how regular I have become, that makes me truly believe a calorie is not a calorie. Eat enough fat and some fibre to keep it moving and it seems to go right through you.

you are very lucky , most people here have to use extra fibre in the form of psyllium husk .

I for one was constantly constipated . I think it is pretty common for people not to load up vegetables because they are so limited on LC eating and pretty boring too . Dont get me wrong , I love all veggies .

I just want to say that after a year of LCing I have decided to hang up my LC boots because it is just not working for me this time round .

I am dissappointed and frustrated because what ever I do the extra weight that I gained will just not come off . I have gained 10 lbs since Christmas .

I am now eating normally and intelligently where nothing is forbidden and I feel released from this prison .

Sorry to have to say that

Sorry you feel that way Rob but it sounds like you weren't eating the mandatory 2-3 cups of daily veggies.

I believe the Atkins induction phase has one of the lowest carb counts to be at and there are still so many veggies allowed daily.

Plus after induction you can increase the daily amounts. I believe the balance of fat, protein and healthy carbs is why I feel so healthy!

Now that I don't have to watch fat or calories a giant salad w/ good dressing is now delicious... unlike when I was low fat dieting.

I know because of my chronic lifelong weight issues I will always have to watch what I eat, but I find this diverse and healthy way to eat has opened my "prison" doors and now I eat happily to satisfaction everyday without guilt.

Just my perspective.

have you had your serum lipids checked yet ?

I suggest you do . I had a shock after learning that my levels shot up while LCing in the early days . As I have a history of hypercholesterolaemia in my family , I got a real fright .

I was eating too much saturated fats and had to change my eating habits . After I gained that weight ,I found that whatever I did ,nothing would get the extra flab off .

I found for myself , in the early days that the only way I could loose was by doing LC and lower fat . I know this is contra to what you hear ,but I found that if I ate alot of fat , I actually put on weight . So in my experience and YMMV , I dont believe in the doctrine " eat fat to loose fat " .

I am just plain dissappointed and have given it all up for a fully balanced diet , not dependent on potassium and cal/mag tablets for my minerals and being terrified of constipation with its consequences.

:wave:

I had mine checked
 

After four months lowcarbing, they are about the same, but my triglycerides and VLDLs are in the basement, baby.

And that's where I want them.

ON the subject of fat changing its caloric output in the absence of carbs- does that mean a 1500 cal diet with 75-80 grams of fat is really only being seen by my body as 1000? Could that be what is causing some not to be successful- the "starvation" mode effect? What are some low carb snacks that will boost up the counts besides cheese and pork rinds? Also, I am on ediets, an online resource, that allows me to do the Atkins diet and still plans my menu for me- but it is keeping me at 1400-1500 calories on the induction phase- should I increase that to eliminate the chance of starvation mode? Also, the only veggies it allows me are ones that I have never heard of or wouldn't eat- any ideas? Today is day two for me and I actually lost 2 pounds of water weight overnight- this from a good digital scale that I use everyday so I know it is accurate! WooHoo

TTFN
Nannie

Wow, excellent thread, thanks so much for the info!!!!! :)

Hello all,
Fascinating stuff about the way dietary fat CANT become body fat. Doreen and ... sorry, Andy I think.... you are a thrilling read.
I'm really curious about the people who stall on Low Carbing , even the people who keep their dietary carbs way low. So I've been doing a bit of reading myself about the way both protein and fat can be ( to varying degrees ) converted to glucose (ie. carbs) by :

(a) in the case of DIETARY protein: gluconeogenesis

and

(b) in the case of DIETARY fat : the glycerol pathway (I'm sure there's a noun for this, perhaps glycerogenesis ? - help!)

Gluconeogenesis is by far the more efficient of these two mechanisms , apparently , - up around 70 % ie. 1 complete protein gram= .7 of a gram of glucose


' glycero- genesis ' (sic) is apparently not nearly as efficient, something like 10 %. Looking for evolutionary ( or God motivated - if you're so inclined) reasons for this difference , it would seem that because ketones ( ie. the other way dietary fat is used metabolically) can provide all the energy needs of the body, including all but a very small amount of glucose required by the brain, you don't actually need ANY carbohydrates to be perfectly healthy. This is probably why dietary fat to satisfy energy needs and appetite is THE best way to lose weight ( and live a whole lot longer into the bargain, because insulin - the aging and body fat depositing hormone- is not asked to the metabolic party

So I wonder if the glucose provided by protein (gluconeogenesis) has exactly the same insulin ( and thereby body fat deposit) triggering effect as dietary glucose (carbs) For that matter glycero-genesis (sic) would be the same , but because it's so much less efficient , in the absence of dietary carbs, most of the resulting glucose would probably be snapped up by the brain , thus keeping it off your waistline!

The obvious implications of these gluconeogenesis and glycero-genesis factors for weight loss is that to a lesser extent than dietary carbs and to a far lesser extent than dietary protein, dietary fat provides very few metabolic carbs.

The human body is so clever at depositing fat ( with obvious survival advantages ). Except with dietary fat . Good news for people who want to lose weight. People who are fed up with the ' boring ' food choices on Atkins induction and are stalled in their weight loss anyway could try reducing their protein intake and doing more weights . The tissue building and rebuilding requirements of anaerobic (ie. weights) exercise snap up the available amino acids leaving fewer for gluconeogenesis. Aerobic exercise has countless cardiovascular benefits , not to mention the stress reducing effects. But as a way to lose weight it's like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.
By the way, I for one, am really prone to being constipated . A daily teaspoon of psyllium husks will make anyone comfortably regular . The capsules are useless for the hard cases - like me. There just isn't enough fibre in them. Unless I suppose , you swallowed ten at a time - very expensive , surely!

So Doreen and Andy, make this unintelligble rave about gluconeogenesis and glycero-genesis (sic) accessible to all those stalled low carbers out there. Carbohydrate (glucose) is and always was the essential ingredient in putting on weight. But dietary carbs are not the only villain. Our bodies simply have more insidious ways of coming up with metabolic glucose.

me again,
More reading, and no wonder I couldn't find the noun for glucose production from fat (or the glycerol component of fat anyway). Because this process is also called gluconeogenesis : ie. production of 'new' glucose from some non carbohydrate source. In the case of human metabolism , that means amino acids (protein) or fat.

sorry!

Can someone enlighten me about whether free fatty acids in the blood from dietary fat consumption are transformed directly by muscle cells into ATP for use as energy , or is there some prior conversion through gluconeogenesis to glucose which then is used for energy production. Where are the ketone bodies actually produced . In the liver? In the bloodstream? In the various other cells that need energy to function? Or perhaps all three? Come on , I need to know!

Also what actually triggers gluconeogenesis (from either fats or protein). Surely the rate varies as dietary carbs are restricted. Presumably energy needs (activity levels at the time) play a big role in determining the rate . And maybe while your body is adjusting to being a fat burner (from either body stores or dietary sources) -which I read somewhere can take up to 20 weeks , the rate is a lot higher . In other words what determines how efficiently free fatty acids in the blood will be used as ketone body energy factories . The efficiency with which body fat deposits are mobilized into free fatty acids must also play a really important role.

And even more importantly , can the glucose produced from gluconeogenesis from protein and fat be then stored back as body fat, with a little help from it's old friend insulin?

Does dietary protein, ie. amino acids in the blood, become glucose (via gluconeogenesis) . And do the muscle cells sort of digest themselves (again through gluconeogenesis) to provide energy for their brothers and sisters . Which cells get to go on doing the work and which get eaten by gluconeogenesis.

The mind boggles!

Can anyone enlighten me?

I'm convinced that properly understanding gluconeogenesis holds the key to why some punters stall with their weight loss , for seemingly no apparent dietary carb reason. So if you are stalled maybe the trick is to restrict protein intake a bit and up the fats, because gluconeogenesis is so inefficient with fat and comparatively much more efficient with protein. Indeed the trick with optimal health and effortless weight loss may not just be to cut out dietary carbs but to ensure that gluconeogenesis doesn't surreptitiously set up glucose factory in your body anyway and with it's nasty little friend insulin , scuttle all your best laid plans .

I suppose we could all just go back to calorie restricted 'food pyramid ' eating and spend the rest of our lives hungry and unhappy!

I don't think so.

cheers,
Stuart