xxovereasy (that's how I eat my eggs lol). Apology accepted. I beg to differ, Christianity and Judaism are not fertility sects, and yes Jehovah is their God but Allah is the god of Islam. As far as your other question is concerned I absolutely will not be drawn into THAT discussion, too! Blessings XX, Karen

Jews for Jesus say Christians and Jews are wrong about what. I'm on their mailing list for their newsletter. I've not encountered this idea. Please enlighten. Blessings, Karen

I'm curious too, Karen. I've known and talked to Messianic Jews and have yet to have one of them tell me that I'm wrong for being a Christian although I can see that the argument might be that Christians are wrong for not celebrating the Jewish feast days and celebrations (Passover, Rosh Hashanna, Yom Kippur, Hannukah, etc..) and that non-Messianic Jews are wrong for not believing that Jesus was the Messiah as He claimed.
Our conversations haven't been along the lines that Christians are wrong for not celebrating Jewish holidays or less saved since we have the same Saviour so much as that because we lack that heritage, we also lack a deep understanding (in general) of the culture that Jesus lived and taught in as well as the real significance of some of the things that He did and said unless we really take the time to delve into it which many Christians do not. In other words, we're missing depth and on that point, I can agree with them.

Interesting thread.
I tried to read all of the debate and while I found it interesting, I didn't see any arguments I haven't seen before.....

One can endlessly debate various interpretations of scripture, how many angels dance on a pin and the very existence (or not) of God. I don't care. All I know is that for the first 24 years of my life I didn't know Jesus. The I went on a spiritual quest to find "TRUTH" with a capital "T". Decided to read the Bible to get it out of the way before looking into the good stuff that really interested me, like Zen and Wicca. But I decided in all fairness I should approach the Bible with as open a mind as I would approach any other book. And Lo! and Behold! I was (most reluctantly) converted. Admittedly, not a terribly original story, but it's mine nonetheless.

And so far in the past 14 years, I haven't felt the urge to start up a televangelist show or burn anybody at the stake. But with Jesus as my example, I have felt directed to become more forgiving, more compassionate, more honest and in general, just a more loving human being. Not saying I'm perfect, just I'm a work in progress.

I'm also NOT saying that these qualities are exclusive/inclusive to Christians because examples to the contrary abound. Just saying this is MY story and I'm sticking to it.

Now to get back to the origins of this thread:



IMHO, I would say cori, that God expects you to be concerned only with the things over which He has given you stewardship such as the health of your body and your family's health (that is, if you have one and if you are the primary food-preparer in your home.). As for blessing the earth, that is something you could pray about. I wouldn't know that a vegatarian diet is what truly blesses the earth, I would say that is God's perogative.

I was a lacto-ovo-vegetarian for 17 years chiefly because of this idea and all the hormones and junk that is part of commercial livestock farming. It wrecked my health. I don't think that was part of God's will for my life. I believe God directed me to LC eating. I am of far greater use to Him and my family when I am functioning in optimum health and with a clear mind (although some previous posters would dispute that, lol). When I ate a high carb low fat diet I had no energy, a multitude of physical complaints and a lot of "noise" in my head, something I have read other carb addicts experienced. LC eating has cleared up my allergy symptoms, given me strength and energy to perform my daily tasks and has helped me feel focussed about life in general. This indeed is God's blessing upon my body.

You can only do what you can do, let God take care of the rest.



And my personal favourite lately:



HTH,
Blessings,
amieK

Regarding Messianic Judaism and Christianity....
 

Sorry to deviate from the original topic but this is a subject dear to my heart. :rheart:

There is much blessing for the believer who seeks after the deeper meaning of the Jewish celebrations, feast days etc as described in the Old Testament. While studying the first Passover one Easter I was overcome when I came to the realization that Jesus IS the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Our homeschooling co-op group studied and clelebrated Purim and Succoth. Then (by co-incidence? ;)) our pastor initiated a whole series of sermons on the events of the Jewish calendar. Really exciting, faithbuilding stuff.

And, although I don't recall the scripture offhand, Paul did warn that one did not have to keep the circumcision (Jewish faith) first in order to be a follower of Christ, as some were preaching. However, I don't think this means those born of the circumcision who accept(ed) Christ as Messiah were required to abandon their practices and beliefs. If anything, I believe a healthy dialogue between Messianic Jews and Christians is of benefit to the Church (as in Bride of Christ) as a whole. Christianity is the new branch grafted on to the old root of Judaism and it is a good thing for the tree to be healthy as one whole living, growing organism. After all, the OT lays the foundation of the NT and the more we delve into and live out scripture, the more God's blessing abounds all around.

Just my .02,
Blessings,
amieK

How do the mormons fit in then? I personally like what i've seen of them.but polygamy? I think its not forbidden in the old/new testament?
Question girls? do you feel the fertility sects are treating women as 2nd class ? :cry: Come on now . the men are against women having equal power under god. cant be right, can it? but lets hear your excusing bad male behaviour.I think women should be equal in power,not just baby and home makers.





some days you get the bar, some days the bar gets you.The Big Lebowski

BTW when you dream of god/jesus/allah..honestly, what picture or vision does he appear like?

The Mormons ( and I have a very good friend who is Mormon) are in MHO very decieved. Many are wonderful people who love God.
But to answer the equal power question I do NOT believe women are treated badly thru Christianity. I was saved along time though badly backslidden for years. My family was not. After a very moving experience where God made Himself very clear to me and some very tough times with my family, all of my family was saved. My husband treats me better than he ever did since then. We attend a non denominational church which teaches very correctly on how men are to treat their wives. With respect and love. I am my husbands mate not his servant. He respects my opinion and we make our decisions together. We ARE equals. If someone takes those verses out of context and uses them to control or manipulate his wife he is not doing what is correctly taught.

Hey xxovereasy, I know nothing about the fertility sects you keep speaking of but I do know about Christianity (at least a little). My bible teaches me that women are honored. Not that human males actually honor us as the bible instructs them to. That is not my problem, they (the disobedient men) will have to answer to God for that. You see all I have to do is be submissive (boy that ought to open a huge can of worms) to my husband. He has to love me as Christ loved the Church. Now how did Christ love the Church....everyone will answer 'He died for the Church'. And that he did. The Church of course being the believers aka the Bride. Now what non-believers seldom if ever hear after the submission/love you wife portion is that....Every minute of Jesus' life was totally and completely and selflessly lived for His Bride. Every thing He did and everything He refrained from doing was so that He could honor His bride. WOW.... To be loved like that (and I am cuz Jesus loves me) by a man, how easy it would be to be submissive to him. I would know that everything he did all decissions he made would be for my benifit. Alas, that is not to be in this lifetime. My bible does not teach that women are second class, falible humans have tried to make it say so tho. As we struggle in this life to become all that God wants for us to be I am able to become more submissive (which is really hard for me because Karen BC was Murphy Brown before she was) and my husband becomes more and more selfless. And the two shall become one-striving to honor each other in every situation. Notice I'm using words like: striving, become, etc.. because I don't want anyone coming back at me saying I think I'm perfect ROFL. I know much better.
JUST baby and homemaker???? No offence xx but not too many men can do this! LoL :) I'd say that puts us women in a pretty hi class. I have worked as a laborer in a mine, road construction, and as a roofer. All of which were pretty physical, strenous jobs. None compare with the demands of motherhood, none. Blessings All, Karen

:Party: :Party: :Party: :Party: :Party: :Party: :Party: :Party: Hey All, I just got my chicken leg. I'm now a registered member.
:Party: :Party: :Party: :Party: :Party: :Party: :Party: :Party:

Me again,
I just wanted to nail this submissive thing before it gets totally out of hand (which it probably wil anyway). Submissive does not mean that we check our brains at the altar. When something comes up, we discuss the matter. Usually we can come up with a decision that we (DH and I) agree to. Love when that happens.

Sometimes tho, we can hash it out and hash it out and find no middle ground. Case in point; recently we were trying to decide how much $ to give as a 'special' gift. We both agreed to give the $. Usually when we want to determine a dollar amount we will both write down on a piece of paper what we believe we should give. Trade papers and oh so often we have both put down the same amount. Not this time. We were WAY off. His of course being MUCH higher than mine. We talked, gave reasons why we felt as we did. In the end we were at an impass.

DH says "So how do we resolve this?" Karen says, "It's easy, I will submit to your decision.We've tried to reach a comprimise and we're getting nowhere." DH picks his jaw up off the floor. Now mind you I did not like this submissive thing, but I couldn't see another way out. You know it was kinda free-ing to not be responsible for the decision. DH reacted so strangely, he did not want to make the final call. I just gave him the ball and he had to decide how to play the game.

Funny thing is he gave a lot less than he originally wanted to. All because I submitted to him. I kinda like how this worked. Blessings, Karen

Thanks for sharing that story Karen! I love reading about how God actually, experientially works in people's lives, as opposed to theories and ideas about how God works.

Ain't it cool how that submissiveness thang actually works when it is done in the spirit and the truth?!! It continues to amaze me in my own life....and to think I struggled so hard for so many years...see Matt. 11:28-30 quoted in my previous post. I'm going to re-read Psalm 116 tonight in honour of you, Karen!

To answer xxovereasy's other question -
I don't recall dreaming of Jesus in any physical detail. But then most of my dream people usually appear a little vague and indistinct. Jesus' appearance is really irrelevant....but all those Sunday school pictures of a handsome blue-eyed blond haired Christ bother me. The closest physical description of Christ is to be found in Isaiah 53:2(b):



When I bother to think about it, this scripture gives me the idea that in physical appearance, Jesus was an unremarkable plain looking sort of guy, maybe even kind of homely. And being Aramaic, he most likely had an olive complexion, dark hair and brown eyes, but this is all supposition on my part. But I imagine that when those eyes looked at you, you knew He could see into the very depths your soul and you knew He loved you to a degree beyond your comprehension.

Again, JMHO,
Blessings,
amieK

PS xxoe - I've been getting tired of my sig lately....your Big Lebowski reference has me convinced it's time for a change....too bad for you, that you really have no idea why I chose that sig in the first place...and truthfully, I hope you don't have to find out....

To get back to cori's question which originated this thread, there is an excellent series of articles on the topic of Biblical nutrition on Chet Day's website.

Blessings,
amieK

Sp K i'm close to my chiken leg or is it turkey leg? God bless you all..

Amiek. I loved the flic lebowski...but youre sig might mean a person whos looking for the real id.? I used to be like that,but i accept who i am "know yourself" 2 most powerfull words. Once you accept who and what you are,youre a winner. So you can't make your dreams a reality but the effort/the journey is the reward. I'm a decent man i think, nonviolent/opinionated/nasty mouthed, but caring to strangers. generous with advice to those who seek it. I didn't realize my passions,but i'm a successful man financialy.So my kids think i'm out of it so what..i surprise them with immaturity as well. toys/tatoos(temp) and music that makes them say dad is weird. anyway enjoy the journey of life. What is this all about? fergaddaboutit. go out and let your inner child play. Is that what your sig is about,or have i gone on a rant...PS you are a nice looking person. canada must be anice place.eh?

Oh to get back on topic. When i dream of god ,i picture a burning bush that doesn't consume it. Thats how it appeared to moses.ok by me. Thank you cecil b demille.

Actuallly, I think you nailed it pretty well. The word that is translated "be submissive" (in some later translations, "be subject to") is a compound word in the Greek, Hypotasso, which comes from Hypo, a primary preposition meaning by or under and Tasso, a primary root which means to draw up in order, arrange, be determined, devoted, established. What does submit mean? According to Webster, submit means: "To commit to the discretion or decision of another". Also note that this is directed to the wives who have entered into a covenental relationship with their husbands, not to women who are unmarried. To those who are unmarried, the command (for both men and women, I might add) is to honor and obey their parents. The Bible also says that we are to be subject one to another.
Okay...so the women are told that they are to submit or be subject to their husbands. What, then, are the husbands told their role is? "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her." and "Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them." The word love in both of these cases is Agapaos, which is the Greek word for selfless or self-sacrificing love. To see a written model of what Agapaos means, see 1 Corinthians 13: "Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perserveres." Those are some pretty tall marching orders for the men and that is what the Bible is telling the wives to be subject to, not abuse and servitude.
Women in the Bible are not JUST homemakers and baby makers, although that in and of itself is a difficult and challenging undertaking. Proverbs 31 describes the wife of noble character with characteristics like this: "She sees that her trading is profitable", "She makes linen garments and sells them and supplies the merchants with sashes", "She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard". So...this woman is a business woman, and apparently a successful one at that, using the profits from her business as she sees best, as well as being a farmer and caretaker of all in her household. We also have examples of women filling important and powerful positions in the Bible such as Deborah who as a Judge over all Israel. Women second class? Nope.

Ok i'm convinced of your independence. But you CAN'T be in power as the men are of your church .
Priestess would be a great accomplishment of the church. BUT it may never happen.

Congrats xxovereasy looks like you got your chicken/turkey leg. Blessings, Karen

Lisa and Amie, I really appreciate all that you both have shared. I love to be enlightened, and share in experiences as well as wisdom (which of course is different than knowledge). Blessings All, Karen

xxovereasy, I really don't want to have the 'power' as you call it. We are in the process of building a new church. You know all the problems that can arise from that. Fights over what color the pews should be and the curtains. I don't care if the pews are pind and the curtains are lime green just as long as God is invited to be in the midst. Blessings All, Karen

That depends on which denomination you're talking about. AFAIK, women cannot be priests in the Catholic church, but there are other churches that allow women to be pastors and teachers, including mine. Our youth pastor is a woman. We have women who are deacons and 2 weeks ago, it was a woman who gave the sermon. In a few weeks, my husband will be preaching while the pastor is on vaction and if you don't think he'll ask for my input into his sermon, think again. It doesn't bother me that I won't be the one standing up in front delivering the sermon; I really wouldn't relish such a task as I dislike public speaking although I have done so in the past.
Paul refers to several women in the New Testament as "Co-laborers in Christ" giving the impression that he sees them as equals.
I think you may also be approaching the whole idea of Priest and Pastor with the wrong definition. Theirs is not truly a position of power, but of servitude. Jesus himself made it clear that if any wished to lead, they must first become a servant. Theirs is the task of serving the body through leading and carrying out the duties to which they have been appointed. All gifts and talents that the believer within the church has are to be used for the building up of the whole church, not the self, including the position of pastor (or Apostle or Elder or Priest). The shepherd leads the sheep, true enough, but the shepherd also cares for, protects, and carries injured sheep when necessary. He is there for the benefit of and nurturing of the sheep, just as it is the pastor's job to benefit, care for and nuture the members of his church.
As for power, again I think that depends. In our church, no one person has the "ultimate" decision making power; it's shared between pastor, elders and deacons and a decision is not made to do or not do something unless they are first all in agreement. Major decisions such as the one we made a few months ago to build a new facility are decided upon by the members of the church and husbands and wives have equal vote.

Wow.. I love the convo.. they are going to end up moving this thread to the "other stuff" thread..
I really felt bad over the weekend..
someone told me (and had no idea about this thread) that you never get into a debate about your religion. especially if there is alot of blaspheme and cynical talk. I knew that the bible says not to debate. The bible says to kick the dust off your feet and move on. but maybe we could move this thread about submission. I would really like to learn more about that. I read about it but I need help applying it. Thanks alot WOG (women of God)

Happy to not have to worry about what the bible thinks of me and my new eating plan. Too many other things to worry about I guess, like creative uses for Pork Rinds

In my office i prefer to hire women. The men i hired were not productive and slightly off mentally. i pay high wages but can't find high calibre help.But when the alpha female wants to fire another female boy i get out of the way. You can tell i was raised by mom.I find women are more reliable than men and will do the dirty work as well,and keep our kitchen clean.

Hi b-ready,I'm afraid that I have no idea how to move this thread about submission. I humbly admit that I am puter illiterate :rolleyes: . Otherwise I would be happy to accomadate you.

As far as debate (discussion involving opposing view points, re: Websters) is concerned. The Apostle Paul was amongst the best. :read2:
Acts 9:29, "He (Paul) talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him." He was a ball of fire in Corinth. Even Paul and Peter debated/discussed issues.

Appolos (contemporary of Paul and evangelist) also debated. :read2: Acts 18:28, "For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ."

Most importantly, Jesus was involved in debates. :read2: Acts 12:28, "One of the teachers of the law came and heard them (Pharisees, Herodians and Jesus, re:vs. 13) debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked......."

On the contrary,I am told to speak with boldness about the Lord. :read2: Acts 4:29,31 "Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants (us)to speak your word with great boldness..... After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly." Blessings All, Karen

Hey! thanks for making me feel better. It's all in the Word. There's just alot to read. I don't feel so bad now.

Trivia for SpecialK
 

To SpecialK,

For the Boil commandment:

I had said there are three sets of ten - did you find the other set?

Try looking at Exodus 34:12-26 These are harder to number - you have to have more knoweldge - 1) 34:12-13 2) 14-16 3) 17 4) 18 5) 19-20 6) 21 7) 22-24 8) 25 9) 26 10) 26 (Boil)

You can see that these appear more primitive. Scholars say the same thing. With their primitiveness they look like the set that Moses wrote down. The other versions are newer especially Deut. since Deut. was inserted at a later date.

Concerning John - the fire and brimstone message - I did not try to make an assumption or was only joking. It is true that John contains more references to the "either you are saved or will burn in hell forever " message than other gospels. I have seen various dates mentioned as long as 150 for some verses and as early as 30 years for a couple of verses.

Concerning judgements - I agree - You can watch someones actions to tell something about one's true nature. I watch for signs of good people vs bad people regardless of their religion. I know bad people can be non-christian or christain. Same with good people. I associate by choice with good people. Sometimes I am in situations with bad people and I just manage the best I can. What I don't appreciate is a Christian making judgements that I never read the bible, know the words but do not understand the spiritual meaning, never really had a personal relationship with Jesus - those types of judgements. I find that new, born again Christains are most guilty of those types of judgements. They don't realize that I was a devout Christian for many years and they will not listen - just try to judge what is in my heart - that they can't possibly see. I have even had a example of one of these types that stole a ladder from me - asked to borrow it and never returned it. I bought a new ladder and joked with my friends - if I see this guy I will offer him that ladder too! You know the story with Jesus and two coats! :roll:

Anyone following this thread - good luck with your LC WOE :wiggle:

i really do apologize for being judgemental. That is really not my heart and I dont want to appear to be that way. Im just simply not perfect, just like everybody else. I need a savior just like the next person. It's just so hard to understand how anyone could read the Word and not be changed. So I made a wrong assumption in thinking that you must have never read it for yourself. again, i apologize. I guess you can call me a young or newborn christian, but saved i am nonetheless..

I read Lee Strobels books and found them entirely unconvincing along with CS Lewis. Christian Apologetics like these have been completely refuted if you dig deep enough. I have read all sides.
Check: http://humanists.net/jesuspuzzle/ctvadvert.htm