I like it!!!
 

I have to admit, the argument about eating life to sustain life makes a lot of sense. Militant vegans seem to be following a hypocritical woe and lifestyle when they put meat eaters down and villify us and see themselves as following the "higher road." Life is precious, no matter where it's found bcause it provides other species a chance to live...whether it be in the slime mold that moves across the tree trunk, or that noble Bambi that was blasted by the hunter and carted home to become venison (much higher in omega 3 fatty acids, and lower in omega 6 transfatty acids than cow meat, incidently) on his barby. Let's all face it. If we want to survive (and there are some who think that Humans are the reason that the world is in such straights and should be eliminated...I call these folks, WACKOS) we must eat something dead which was once alive...plant, animal, whatever, but it must be from living organisms. We don't do well eating dirt, or rocks. If life isn't precious in any form, why are we spending billions to see if the most primitive forms of life could exist elsewhere in the universe? So, to all you militant vegans who read this and think we are the epitomy of evil and that you are on the "high road" to moral living...GET OVER IT!!! GET A LIFE!!! LEAVE US ALONE! GO SPOUT YOUR MORALITY TO SOMEONE WHO CARES!! This is a forum for meat-eating omnivores...OH WELL! TOO BAD! I ain't changing to poorer health to satisfy your need to kill off more species (as evidenced by the number of little animals and insects that are wiped out from each pass of the tractor in your fields of grain) than meat eaters do, for anything! Does this sound mean-spirited? It really isn't. Anybody who comes on this forum to preach to us about the evils and "stupidity" of our WOE is the mean-spirited one who should mind his/her own business!

Veggiemax is confused. While it is true our closet genetic relative is the chimp at about 98% to argue we should adopt their diet is very simplistic. First, chimps eat meat at every opportunity; their evolutionary circumstances don't always permit this. Thus, they are forced to adapt. This is not always evolutionarily optimal in a biological sense. Evolution does not imply forward progression and in fact often force spices backward in terms of biological optimality. Second, the human brain was forced to evolve, as hunting needs demanded. Your brain is far more developed due to the hunting for meat cave men had to do. Third, all evidence points to the fact that we evolved as a separate species because we were hunter/gatherers not gatherer/hunters. As such we developed our own unique set of biological needs based on our evolution. We are 99.999999% genetically similar to those who hunted over 11,000 years ago. As such a diet based on preagrarian times would logically be the most optimal. Fourth, we are 95% genetically related to 95% of most of the creatures on this planet. Even creatures within the same spices but in differing subgroup can have vastly differing dietary requirements, so to say we should eat what chimps eat is way off. Chimps would be better off low carbing and probably would if they could.

Hi M,

Welcome to the active lowcarbers forum, and congratulations on your first post, which I thought was well-judged, well-argued and instructive.

You have naturally gravitated to a viewpoint very similar to that held by the person responsible for getting me into low-carbing in the first place. His name is Dr Richard Mackarness, whose book "Eat Fat and Grow Thin" was based on what he described as the "Stone Age" or "pre-cereal" diet. It was his contention that biological adaptations take hundreds of thousands of years to take place, so humans eating cereals were not biologically equipped to digest them properly. This was not so bad when processing was done by hand, because a lot of husks and other roughage found its way into the processed product. But many people cannot metabolize cereals processed mechanically because we lack the specific enzyme chains which would make this possible. Thus, for those of us with this defect (that is all of us here), as long as we eat what our forbears would have eaten 11,000 years ago, our bodies will be in good shape and we will be healthy. Incidentally, Mackarness's book was first published in 1958, some 14 years before Atkins.

I have reviewed Mackarness's book for this forum (among other books) and if you would like to read more about it, click on this link:-

http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-a...mackarness.html

Best wishes,

Andy

LOL
 

And through all of this, we've lost vegiemax... I think close to page 3... Too bad he missed all the good arguments to his theory.

Yup...Veggiemax made a total of 8 posts and hasn't been heard from again since January 17, 2002. It's a shame they didn't stick around to hear the very sound rebuttals to their position, but everyone else who reads this will get the benefit so it's a good thing that a dialogue on the subject was opened even though the originator didn't stick around to benefit from it.

Somtimes I think that people come to this forum to "save" us from our "unhealthy" ways thinking that we haven't thought through or WOE and then split when they encounter strong and well-reasoned arguments in favor of what we are doing before they get "converted". LOL

Note from a Blood Type B "recovering vegetarian"
 

Sixteen years of vegetarianism left me overweight, sick and tired.
Despite my philosophical leanings toward a vegan/vegetarian diet it just does not work for my body. Period.

In the past three years I've been doing a lot of experimenting, going on and off LC. And I've found what works for me and it involves eating meat or eggs at least 2x per day. My body rebels when I try to go veg; my blood sugar gets unstable, my thinking becomes unfocused and I tire easily. Who needs that?

Chimps, vegans, vegetarians, go ahead and eat what feels best to you and I'll do the same.

Bon apetit!
amie

Well, hey?! What about the Breatharians????

I just read this whole thread...I have to be amused at the theory of eating like a chimp just because we share nearly 99% of genetic material with them. On the other hand, that makes them so far removed from us that we can't interbreed with them. A horse and a donkey are much more closely related, and they can interbreed, but cannot produce a viable offspring. And look at goats and sheep--both are considered ovines, yet they can't interbreed either. So my question is: Do we *really* have that much in common with a chimp? Actually, it is known that chimps do eat insects and small animals. I believe gorillas are the only known true fruitarian primates aren't they?
As someone pointed out earlier, we seem to have much more in common with pigs, as we can use their organs, and pigs are also omnivorous, just like us. I have to be amused at folks who consistently try to argue that we are vegetarians--especially the folks who argue the 'back to Eden' way of eating. Well, keep reading your Bible folks...God also gave us animals, birds and insects to eat and with very strict guidelines as to how to choose what to eat and how to end their lives swiftly and mercifully and to prepare them with honor and gratitude. Granted, today's slaughterhouses aren't great in that respect (some are better than others), but one can find a local abbatoir where the local grassfed cattle/sheep/goats are taken to the back door and quickly shot then freshly prepared. At least you know the animal didn't suffer in that situation and arrived at the abbatoir's in good condition. Yes, I am one of those folks who believes a person should have killed and prepared an animal or fowl at least once in order to truly appreciate what the creature is giving you--and thank it for it's sacrifice. It will live on through you.....

These people need to research!!!
 

Phil Kaplan had too much to say about how he was shafted out of TV interviews. Perhaps that is why he is so anti Atkins???
He talked about Kidney stones in Atkins diet followers. Well, read any medical journel or search the web, and most Doctors cannot determine what causes Kidney stones. It is more than often hereditary or a lack of sufficient water intake and in the extreme Hypothyroidism.
Dr Atkins suggests lots of water.
It reminds me of when a family member (in-law) got kidney stones. She was always on a diet, however low fat, and she would not drink water or any water based beverage.
She contracted Kidney stones and the best advice her Dr gave her was to drink 8 glasses of water a day and steer away from sugar laden food.
Now,------ doesnt that say something, and that was in 1984.
Helen
Anyway, dont body building types like Phil, live on protein and then eat carbs before a competition to bulk themselves up??? Isnt that more damaging??

well as I understand it
 

The best body builders eat a diet that is fairly normal but high in veggies and protiens without worry about carb intake except that its clean (ie whole grains) in the months of training before a competition.
Then when they have gotten the size they want in muscles just in the few weeks before the comepetion they go.. Yes folks.. VERY LOW carbs to get the muscle definition they want as carbs help hold the water in the body.
Its a delicate balance between size and definition. They are judged on Both.
Nedra

Let's take this a step further - chimp lifestyle
 

The chimp that is genetically closes to us is the Bonobo chimp, which can communicate with sign language, add, subtract, and even do fractions (I saw a film when I was studying cognitive science).

Bonobos also are incredibly peaceful animals and have no war. Why not? They are too busy having sex and various kinds of sex-related play. I'm serious, they fool around all day. (More info here.)

So, even more important than eating fruit and termites as "VegieMax" suggests, we should adopt their behavioral habits, and we'd all be happier and healthier, wouldn't we? The world economy would come to a screeching halt, but there'd be no more war or killing.

I don't think it's for me, though. I wouldn't want to catch everyone's fleas. :D

I will NOT--I repeat NOT-start eating termites!!! Not even for sex!!! :D

the vegetarian is lost?
 

Just reviewing some posts since I have been off the low carbers forum for some time.
Just for any one's information: I lost a brother in 1987 who was a vegetarian for years and years was slim and died suddenly. No autopsy was preformed, {at family's request} and no hint as to what he died from. But he was the only one in a family of 6 men and one female {me} to skip the obvious, a stress test.
Three brothers had by pass operation and one had a stent put in place at 75yrs.
The person they thought would not need the stress test died. It was more than certain the cause was a heart attack.

So the high and mighty veggie can run around as smug as can be but he should get a paid up life insurance because no one knows for sure what is happening to his arteries unless he is tested or scanned.

Big Brain
 

Somewhere along this genetic trail you have built, we departed from Pan Troglodytes in that we had access to a great deal of protein which physically enabled us to develop our big brains. We could not have done so without large and consistent amounts of protein. Vegan mothers have been found to produce children with protein defects in their brains, which cause them to be retarded. We are genetically tied to proteins in our diets. Reading the entrails of chimpanzees hardly qualifies as an intelligent aproach to understanding homo sapiens' nutritional needs.

Question: Was it even possible for a large group of humans to be vegitarians before the invention of agriculture? Agriculture was instituted, what?, Maybe 14,000 years ago? I am sure that seems long enough on a societal scale to appeal to people who are vegitarians and who come out of culture of vegetarianism, to say that we should be vegetarians because that is how some cultures have lived and thrived, but 14,000 years isn't enough time for us to have evolved to that changed diet, so to suggest it is our preferred eating situation is stretching things. Realistically, could a decent-sized poulation of humans (we are BIG primates) have found enough food to feed and sustain themselves without meat, before argriculture? You have to remember that wild foods are much smaller than the currently available modern varieties too. This includes seed sized for grains. Some were not even edible before cultivation. Take the almond for example, a staple of many traditional cultures, but poisonous in its pre-cultivated form (too high in tannins, I believe).