Debatable.

And most restaurants aren't requiring overweight people to sit in a special "Fatties Section" where other patrons won't be put off their food by looking at us adding to our adipose. Nor is our "addiction" taxed for our sins the way tobacco is -- and a damn good thing for us low-carbers, too, as the nutritional establishment would probably want to give "healthful" low-fat products a big tax break and make us pay big time for our steaks and cream.
Have you ever seen Nick Nolte mentioned in Jay Leno's monologue since his (Nolte's) drunk driving arrest last year? Leno has milked Nolte's mug shot at least as much as he's mentioned Monica Lewinsky.

I think if there's an organizing principle, it's that if one's self-destructive behavior makes one less attractive, the "comedians" come out of their kennels. Robert Downey Jr. might have drug problems, but he still looks pretty good -- Nick Nolte looked like crap. Result: Downey gets a pass, Nolte gets ridiculed. Smokers look pretty good (until they start coughing up chunks of lung in a hospital), but overweight people look less attractive. Result: "Yo' mama is so fat, when she sits around the house -- she sits AROUND THE HOUSE!"

Whether it's "all right" or not, people who injure themselves in stupid ways get ridiculed too. See http://www.darwinawards.com or maybe http://www.fark.com (just for starters). The Germans even have a name for it: schadenfreude -- "Would that English were so honest!"

Even if we are held responsible out of proportion to the harm we do, so what? Would it really make it easier for us to lose weight if comedians stopped making fun of us?

Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire here --
Take a look at the first letter in Dan Savage's column from June 18-24 2003
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0325/savage.php
(site may not be suitable for work)

Myself, I agree with Dan.

This whole thing is just so horrible to watch. To have all this displayed on a website is so hurtful and tasteless.

I feel sorry for Andy, he's obvuiously married to the wrong woman if the only thing that turns him on is her body. Does he not find her face, her movements, her energy etc. sexy? Chemistry is not reliant on body size, it's either there or it's not. 30lbs shouldn't effect chemistry that much, not like she's gained 100lbs!!!!!!!!

Sounds to me theres a lot more problems with this marriage than poor "Candy's" weight issues.

D'know if this is even real though, I mean who's called Candy and Andy?

Whether he is concerned for her health or not, he doesn't SAY so. He is acting like a jerk, and it's jerky to open up this kind of discussion online.
What if he was losing his hair? Would it be a "get a toupee or I'm divorcing you" thing?
Perhaps they deserve each other.

wow! Now, aint this the truth? I had a drinking/drug problem for years, but very few people saw the need call me on it. I have also struggled with my weight since I was about 9 years old and I could fill a book with all the things that people (friends, relatives, STRANGERS) have said--ridiculing, shaming and blaming me for my condition.

I have ceased the drinking/drugging--no one seems to notice much or care (which is fine with me), but I've also lost about 20 pounds and the amount of praise that I have recieved is staggering!

What is wrong with this picture? In my mind, my drinking/drugging had much more serious ramifications to my health than 40 extra pounds (not that that is healthy either) and yet the substance abuse is not seen as cause for ridicule. But just try being 40 pounds overweight and everyone and thier brother takes the opportunity to cut you down and tell you how to live! Including people who are heavy themselves. It's amazing!

wait a second.....so alcoholics (people who are drinking themselves to death) have more "going on" than severly obese folks (people who are eating themselves to death)?

They are two different means to a very destructive end. Why does one group deserve special treatment and more respect than the other?

I don't think eating too much is that different from drinking too much, gambling too much, even drugging too much. (Who has had a tooth out, bone surgery, or similar need for drugs? They aren't bad, they can just be used for bad purposes.)

I know I always blamed myself for my weight problems. Part of it was my fault, since I had a problem with emotional eating. But part of it was also the carb cycle, making me always hungry.

Any addiction has two components like this: the emotional side and the physical side. Gamblers can get hooked on the adrenalin rush of their large bets. Because we have emotional and physical sides which interact, all addictions have these two sides.

The way society regards various addictions is always subject to change. Right now, with the physical problems with carbs not recognized, overweight is seen as something entirely within someone's control, while drinking is seen as something totally out of someone's control. The truth for both is somewhere in between.

Society thinks it's entirely okay to have an intervention with a drug addict, "You must get help!" Etc. Does anyone do that for someone with a weight problem? It's interesting.

Given the number of people who pointed out my weight to me, compared to the scant few who acknowledged my ex's alcoholism you'd almost swear they don't think you KNOW you're fat!

"Man, you've really put on the weight.."

Me: "OMIGOD! Thank you SO much for pointing that out to me! I never would have REALIZED that without you telling me... To think, the tighter, plus-sized clothes, breathing heavy after exertion of any kind, my doctor telling me my health is at risk..not being able to fit in the chair with ARMS in his waiting room...the Slim-Fast, the Weight Watchers...crying myself to sleep....none of that was a clue until YOU called me fat and snapped me to my senses! Thank you SO much!"

<ahem>

Nope. We get to sit with everyone else and have total strangers feel free to comment on what we order and how much of it (loud enough for us to hear, of course) and our friends/family get to share in the embarassment with us.



Which validates my earlier point that only the thin and beautiful are "worthy" of validation in our society no matter how destructive their behavior is.



There's a big difference between laughing at someone who is stupid enough to put a cup of hot coffee between her legs, get burned and then bring a lawsuit against the restaurant who sold her the coffee for not warning her (in writing, no less), that the coffee was served hot. I doubt too many people would find it acceptable behavior to go down to the local closed head injury or spinal cord injury clinic and mock the patients because they got they way due to their own carelessness (careless/impaired driving, extreme sports, etc...) and yet it's perfectly acceptable to mock someone who is overweight "because we did it to ourselves"? Besides...those with disabilities (self-inflicted or otherwise) are protected from discrimination by the Americans With Disabilities act...those that are overweight are not.



The question isn't whether or not it would make it easier to lose weight if people stopped mocking us, although obviously it doesn't do much good or there would be a lot less fat people walking around and for those that have an emotional component to their overeating, it only contributes to the problem. The question is why should we have to wait until we get thin or BE thin to be treated with dignity and respect.



I don't care what their opinion is as long as they keep it to themselves. I do care when that opinion becomes action in the form of verbal abuse or discrimination.



Nope. They wouldn't likely say it to your face. Just behind your back while they're hiring someone else who is thinner and better looking for the position saying something like, "Well...we had a candidate who was more qualified, but he doesn't project the type of image we'd like to represent our company..."

While all these posts are really interesting conversation, I guess, to go back on subject...

It doesn't make you a bad person to admit that your spouse's weight gain makes them less sexually attractive to you. That being said, a marriage shouldn't be contingent on your partner's size, since, presumably, you married for deeper reasons than physical appearance. Trying to bully or humiliate your spouse into changing is poor form, to say the least!

Should we lose weight to please our spouse? My knee-jerk reaction would be "NO"... only to make ourselves healthy and happy. Go a little deeper, though, and in the context of a loving relationship, I'd have to say "it depends"...

That may seem like a wishy-washy answer, but I quit smoking more out of love for my children than my own reasons. I love them enough to want to spare them the pain of losing another parent when I could do something to prevent it. In a way, I'm losing weight and gaining health more for them than myself... although it didn't happen until I was ready... no amount of ridicule would have made it happen any faster.

What it all boils down to for me is the spirit of the whole thing. He comes off as a shallow jerk.

When you were at or near your maximum weight, would you have been willing to allow your husband to have sex with someone in shape, as long as he promised to not fall in love with her, but only be attracted to her on the physical level? After all, marriage is about more important things than shallow, superficial physical attraction, right? :devil:

I agree. Unless nothing else works, that is -- then bring on the bullying or humiliation. Or bail, and find someone who will take care of him/herself, someone more to your liking, and let the ex look for someone who doesn't care what her/his spouse looks like. But I think if you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate -- if that's what it takes to get them to make a change that's pleasing to you and beneficial to his/her health.
Sometimes, that's what the spouse or kids are for -- to get you to do something good that you wouldn't do for yourself.

Amen, sister! :agree: In my opinion, marriage should be about bringing out the best you have to offer. Spending hours a week sitting on the couch watching football or soap operas when you might be improving your mind does not count as bringing out your best. Neither does letting yourself go physically, gaining weight year by year, until you get to the point where stomach stapling starts to look like a good idea. Marriage should be about two* people becoming more than either could be alone -- not a long, slow roll downhill from one's physical and mental peak.

*Or more if you can manage it -- I'm not prejudiced. But making it happen with just two is hard enough for most of us.

My husband did and still does say to me " it doesn't matter how you look I still love you " But for me I want to lose the weight I'm tired of huffing and puffing as I walk up the steps or down the street. Then there are times (not often) I think he does mention my weight because he thinks that will get me motivated again.
(:exclm:wrong ! just makes me feel worse and I pig out. ) As long as he is supportive I'm happy. We will be celebrating our 32nd wedding anniversary on Thursday and I have had more gain than loss. :Party:

Then I think about my sister who is married to an A--! I have heard that he has told her if she gains weight he will leave her . He has also told her if she ever cuts her hair he would also leave. From what I understand she had her hair trimmed and he wouldn't talk to her for 3 weeks. To me that is a Major. A-- :bash:

[QUOTE=Dean4PrezUnless nothing else works, that is -- then bring on the bullying or humiliation. Or bail, and find someone who will take care of him/herself, someone more to your liking, and let the ex look for someone who doesn't care what her/his spouse looks like. But I think if you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate -- if that's what it takes to get them to make a change that's pleasing to you and beneficial to his/her health.QUOTE]

I hope for her sake that your gf never gains weight or does something that's not exactly to your liking if bullying and humiliation are what you deem acceptable treatment of someone you're suppossed to love!! You're obviously not familiar with the concept of unconditional love!!

I mean c'mon "If you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate". What a lovely view of relationships you have!!!!

No, I disagree strongly. There's NEVER a good reason to bully or humiliate anyone.

After all, if it worked, none of us with unsupportive families would still have this problem, right?

Am I understanding your comment correctly? Do you advocate having more than one partner in marriage?

Not to mention that it is usually ineffective to bully someone. I doubt that the person who wrote that has ever had any success changing anyone's behavior through humiliation & bullying. (Dean4Prez can correct me if he has; I don't expect to see a correction).

Saying that you can alter a fat person's behavior by humiliating them is rather absurd: fat people live their entire lives with built-in humiliation and ridicule. Adding more ain't going to influence them. It never did me, it just made me hate those who did it. Nothing ever really works until someone makes the decision on his own, anyway. You really cannot change people.

I cannot imagine a situation where humiliation would work on my wife, even if I had the heart to employ it. It isn't conceivable to me that I'd ever do it, that I could be that cruel, even to a noble end.

Could be just a glitch, but yahoo is now reporting that the site http://geocities.com/thin_or_fat cannot be found.

I Googled the geocities thin_or_fat site, and came to THIS site .. www.geocities.com/miatauniverse/ .. which has this statement on its home page
I then Googled andyandcandy (the username for the person who posted the message asking people to go to their geocities site to cast a vote) ... came up with quite a few results for the post, which was cut & pasted to a number of pub.ezboards .. including a porn site. http://www.google.ca/search?q=andya...=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8




Doreen

There is a term for bullying, threatening and/or humiliating another person that you are involved in a relationship with. It's called abuse and while I know that my DH would never do this to me, I can guarantee you that the relationship would not last long if he did. I have more self-respect than to allow another person who is supposed to love me unconditionally (that is, in effect, what you are promising with those marriage vows you take) abuse me or allow my daughters to witness me allowing myself to be treated with anything less than respect.

There's a big diference, IMO, between an ultimatum (when all discussion fails) and humiliation and bullying. An ultimatum is stating clearly what you can and can not live with, not a personal attack. In the case of my ex's drinking and cheating, it got to the point of "I can't continue to watch you destroy yourself and have you abuse me and the children. I need you to make a choice. Rehab or divorce." He chose divorce. His drinking killed him.

Do you really think calling him names and trying to embarass him publicly would have helped when he didn't care about his own children any more?

I loved him enough to marry him. I loved my kids and myself enough to "bail".


If he made the case that either I lose weight, or he'd leave me, I honestly don't know what I'd do. I'd have been insulted, and if I wasn't at the point of being able to see the need for change, I'd likely have reacted the same way he did to my ultimatum about his drinking... and I DO know that humiliation and bullying didn't help. He tried it.

Is every request for a change a humiliation?

I've known hypersensitive and hateful women who insulted me repeatedly, and yet crumbled into tears and rage at even my gentlest constructive request for them to modify something. (I never did ask for her to lose the 100 lbs she gained in the 3 years we were together because there is no way I know of to "communicate" that without causing an explosion. After our sex life died, and our friendship died, we broke up instead.)

Just about every guy ought to know that the query "does this make me look fat?" is a loaded question, fraught with danger, by someone who is out to pick a fight.

I think "unconditional love" ought to work BOTH ways. If I ask a lover for something, and she unconditionally loves me, she ought to fall all over herself getting it accomplished - just as the reverse ought to be true as well. "Unconditional love" is not a lazy excuse to avoid some difficult but doable goal. Using it as such an excuse cheapens it into insignificance.

No, it isn't. Oinking at someone every time they eat and calling them a fat slob/pig/disgusting at every opportunity is. Commenting on how fat and disgusting they've gotten in the presence of friends and family (or total strangers for that matter) is.




I think you may have a different understanding of unconditional love than I do. Unconditional love means that you love someone no matter what. It's given willingly and freely with no strings attached, no having to meet your demands/requests, to receive that love.

Now, out of consideration and respect, I don't have a problem with my DH making a reasonable request of me for change (note...a request, not a demand with an ultimatum following). But as far as being willing to move heaven an earth to meet that request, ask yourself if you would be willing to do that if you felt that a) the request was unreasonable or b) you were being asked to give something up that you really loved like going out with a particular buddy because your SO doesn't like them or having a couple of beers every night because your SO is against drinking alcohol.
Another example...let's say that my DH feels that my doing low carb is unhealthy (he doesn't) and asks me to go back to the ADA diet that I was following before. Should I be willing to fall all over myself to comply?

Hey all, so....

As far as every request for a change being humiliating I would have to say it all depends on how much self confidence you have. Someone with only a little self-esteem can be brought down mighty quickly with a few little words (I would know).

As for my SO making a reasonable request of me and would I follow through, well, it's circumstances that makes any request reasonable or not. As for doing it, if it's reasonable, I would in a heart beat and not expect anything in return, to me that is unconditional love and a healthy relationship (well, along with trust and loyalty...)

If I were to perform all his requests, reasonable or not, this would mean some lack in my own character, and how can I love him unconditionally when I cannot love myself that way first?

In my opinion; I voted for thin. I would lose the weight.

The (reasonable in my opinion) request did not harm anyone. If I were to say no and he were to leave, it wasn't meant to be. If I say yes and he stays, he accepts me for who I am, and the fact that I know he would like me to lose weight may cause me to act on that issue in the future, without pressure.

It's a healthy choice to be thin, losing weight brings not only beauty (we all know this). I'm sure if losing weight were as simple as getting changed, then asking his wife to lose weight could be the same as asking her to dress more appropriately for his work's barbeque. Some people take offence (you see them on Jerry Springer) and others take advice or, in this case, "requests."

It's all about give an take anyway. Reach a compromise, that's healthy, and fair.

As for the whole site being a hoax...most likely was, but that doesn't really matter...it ain't something ta get all hung up over.

I wish you all the best with your attempts at better health. If atkins brought only better health and no weight loss, do you think this many people would be doing it?

-mildwild

THIS IS ALL IMHO... :)

Were you on the "Twinkie Defense" jury? Simple carbohydrates may be addictive, but they don't affect one's judgement the way alcohol and some drugs do. Have you ever heard of a young woman having sex with someone she wouldn't have otherwise after having a second piece of pie? (If you have and if she's cute, let me know -- I want to buy her some Sara Lee :) ) Are there any groups of alcoholics anywhere who have "planned binges" the way some of us have "planned cheats" (e.g. for Thanksgiving)? Until the police start doing roadside Dextrostix tests and taking people to jail for having an open container of Ding-Dongs on the front seat, I think alcoholism should definitely be treated differently ("special treatment" if you like) from "carb addiction."

As for "more respect," I just don't feel I have enough experience with alcoholism to draw any conclusions about it.

Are there groups of alcoholics that have planned binges? You bet there are! After not only dealing with a few alcoholics in my family, I've worked in two different bars... One guy has a really big bender with the reasoning that his kids are about to "throw him in the tank" again..better have fun NOW.

There's another old man who saves it up all week, and Friday night is his "night off". He's perfectly reasonable all week... probably only sneaking a nip or two for an "eyeopener". Friday night is his free-for-all, since "You can't be an alcoholic if you only get drunk once a week."

Anyone who's never at the mercy of binge behavior probably wouldn't understand the similarities between the two. No, carbs are not intoxicating, per se, but if you've ever been around a bulimic, or God forbid, have bulimia you could describe the pull of the sugar and forbidden foods in similar language. In the midst of a binge, a bulimic has the same sense of suspended time, euphoria, the drive to continue eating even though it's no longer pleasurable...that "eat 'til it's gone" feeling.

Well, if my girlfriend gained a significant amount of weight for no good reason, I might stop her midway through dessert sometime and say something like, "Tell me -- is the pleasure you'll get from finishing that more important to you than the pleasure I get from your healthy body?" If she continued eating after that, I would give serious consideration to dumping her so she could find herself a man that likes fat chicks. I wouldn't go any farther than that to try to change her behavior. A relationship with a girlfriend is disposable -- there are plenty more fish in the sea.

But if my wife (11 years on December 19) were to gain an unhealthy amount of weight for no good reason, I would do what I needed to get her to start losing it, starting with asking nicely and progressing all the way to bullying or humiliation if necessary and if I thought it would do any good. Marriages are NOT disposable.

Of course, the time she gained about 50 pounds (for a good reason -- she was suffering from migraine headaches that kept her on the couch for months), I didn't even have to ask her to start losing weight. She knows how much I enjoy her body when it's healthy, and my enjoyment and happiness is important to her. And her enjoyment and happiness is important to me, by the way.

Unconditional love? Yeah, that's what my wife's ex-husband expected from her when he, ahem, started to gain weight and also allowed his parents to interfere with his marriage. She's been married to me a lot longer than she was married to him.

Unconditional love is for children, and immature "adults" who didn't get enough of it in their childhoods -- and that's showbiz, kid.

It's called Tough Love. Sometimes it's necessary. I don't think it will ever be necessary in our marriage, but I'm willing to try it if nothing else I tried worked.

The thing is, Dean, I'm guessing the reality is that it wouldn't work at all. People don't tend to respond to that. You would need to find a better way.

I just have this vision of a psychology B.A. grad in line on the first day of boot camp. "Excuse me? Sergeant? I know you mean well, but it's usually ineffective to bully and humiliate someone." :)

I've never needed to; my wife and I are adults (for the most part), not arrested adolescents. However, I've seen bullying and humiliation work to change people's behavior. I've never been in the military (flunked the physical when I was at my fittest), but back in the '80s I did est -- I remember one est trainer, a petite Japanese woman who could have intimidated R. Lee Ermey. My wife tells me that her parents bullied her into always cleaning her plate before leaving the table -- does that ring a bell with anyone here?


Yeah, all the incompetent therapists agree.

I don't think there's any situation where it would work on my wife either, and I'm not sure I would be successful if I got into a situation where I'd exhausted all the alternatives and was left with bullying or humiliation as my only alternatives to leaving her. But it's inconceivable to me that I wouldn't even TRY.

Humiliation is what got me where I am right now...just to let you guys know.

I worked at a walmart, and went back after having quit about 3-4 months earlier. One of the girls I worked with, in front of plenty of customers and other ex-coworkers and supervisors says to me "you've gained weight haven't you, you got fat." It was just humiliating enough to work. Mind you it was only about 20 lbs, but that does make a difference, it was humiliating and that day things changed.

That was in October.

-mildwild